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Excessive code and excessive nudity. What gives?

Can't say it's a problem
That you write code for porn sites isn't a problem for me. In

fact, I really can't understand the minds of people who would

find it a problem. Where are these people ? I know there are

many conservative types around, but I thought (hoped) they

were a dying breed.

Sad to hear that you have experienced such attitudes, but

part of me can't help feeling drawn to a 'seedy underworld' - it

sounds like a nice place to escape the dreary 'real world.'

Especially if the inhabitants are as friendly as your perl hacking

friends.

Rik

Re: Can't say it's a problem

> That you write code for porn sites isn't
> a problem for me. In
> fact, I really can't understand the
> minds of people who would
> find it a problem. Where are these
> people ? I know there are
> many conservative types around, but I
> thought (hoped) they
> were a dying breed.
>
> Sad to hear that you have experienced
> such attitudes, but
> part of me can't help feeling drawn to
> a 'seedy underworld' - it
> sounds like a nice place to escape the
> dreary 'real world.'
> Especially if the inhabitants are as
> friendly as your perl hacking
> friends.
>
> Rik
>
>

Well, most of the conservative types are usually

found in management :) Don't forget that the

corporate structure of most 'normal' companies

usually tries to shy away from anything that's not

normal - I for one find it extremely difficult to

find freelance jobs due to my other work in the

adult industry, so usually I just plain out

<b>hide</b> the fact I do work in that area.

As far as being a nice escape from the real world,

I wish - the pace is grueling, the competition

wants nothing more than your head on a silver

plate, and ofcourse the peer pressure I mentioned

isn't good either. On the other hand, the pay is

good, the fringe benefits are good, and you spend

80% of your time innovating and trying new things.

The remaining 20% is doing fixes and patching. The

only real drawback I see in working in the adult

industry is that, if you work with porn day in day

out, you get desensitized to it. You can show me a

pic of some hot chick nude doing the nasty, and

I'll comment on the nice lighting setup instead of

the action :)

Conformity
One problem I see is that a sizable number of Americans want to force others to conform to their religious views. Note that I didn't say moral views. Morality varies widely between religions. Some groups forbid the consumption of alcohol and/or gambling. Others are much less concerned with these practices but are more concerned with issues like contraception and abortion.

I am a firm believer in freedom of religion. I think that people should be able to practice their faith unmolested. Further, I believe that people should be free to join and leave religious groups without harassment.

I am a highly moral and ethical person, probably more so than many people who profess to be religious. But I don't believe in God and I refuse to conform to many religious sects' beliefs.

The point of all of this is that I think people should be free to define acceptable standards for their own sect but that people outside a sect should be free to define their own standards within the boundaries of the law. Further, laws which encode religious beliefs, like anti-abortion or anti-porn laws, instead of morality, like laws against murder, should be eliminated. I call this "freedom of nonreligion."

To conclude, people shouldn't apply their religious standards to others. If someone's coding for a porn site and your religion is against pornography but their religion or lack of religion has nothing to say about such things, you should treat that person no different than a conforming member of your own sect.

It's not the code, stupid
What's the purpose or writing code? Make things works. What's the purpose of making things works? Do some useful work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think we found the problem here...

Amazing
The interesting part to this discussion is that no one realizes the changes in technology that porn has given the world.

Video tape has been used since the late 40's but was far to expensive to be used as a consumer product. It took the porn industry trying to reduce the costs of 8mm and 16mm film to push video tapes and the vcr into the world of mass consumerism. The "major studios" only got on board once the porn industry had pretty much guaranteed a vcr in every house.

Video cds, DVD (less so than others) and most of the on-line credit card stuff has been driven by the porn industry needing these things.

Realistically speaking, based on this article, Hollywood movies, network television, the US has truly become the world's biggest socialist country. Land of the free? Yeah right.

Patrick

Happy to live in Canada, the Great White North

Matter of preference
I just can't imagine modifying my code just because some stupid jerk mailed the management that he didn't like the layout of the page. I care about my code and more about who gets to use it and for what purpose. And a porn coder (nice name you invented :)) is bound to be in such situations.. I wouldn't like that..

Interesting
I found your article very interesting, thankyou for sharing your experiences. If I ever need to hire someone to do some web coding, I'll be sure to look for people who have been in the adult industry just for speed's sake.

I can't see why people would not care to hire or consult with someone who has worked in the adult industry, afterall experience is experience.

Re: Interesting
I am a System Administrator/Programmer for one of those "respectable" companies (if you can call a major newspaper respectable). You know, I've never had anything against "porn coders". In fact, some of the most ingenious work I've seen on the net is on Porn sites. Go figure...

As far as I am concerned, a good programmer is a good programmer. What he is writing for a living is not as important to me as *how* he writes it.

If during an interview a potential programmer said "Hey, some of my work is on site xyz.com...but it's a porn site." I'd still look at it, and if it was good, it would earn him points in my book. Skill is skill, and that's that.

Dyyryath

Share your code

You speak alot about the quality of work porn coders produce and the fact that it is shared amongst the porn coders. Perhaps you should be making your work available in an open source fashion. Seeing a high level of quality work and releasing it as open source will certainly gain you alot of respect despite the industry you work for.

About time
As a fellow "porn coder" I must applaud you in your statements. Everything stated is sooo very true. I live it 7 days a week 18 hours a day, and can completley aggree with all that you have said.

It is especially true with the "fringe benefits" where else can you just drive to work and walk in on a full nude photo set, and no one even notices you walking through!

Then there is the satisfaction that your code that you spent countless hours tweaking, is getting executed 2 million times a day. Then you get paid "quite" well for it.

I never got that writing e-comm software for "normal" use!

just my 2 cents

Porn to care giving...
You know, for a long time I used to say that I worked at a "high traffic advertising company" because I was intimidated by the though of people's reactions and it worked as a answer to "what kind of company do you work at?" I duped parents, friends, pretty much everyone and I was glad that I could hide my skills in a flashy name for an under appreciated sector of the Internet w/o disclosing the kind of material that I was helping spread. Now I'm at a care giving company (of all places, nurses, doctors, etc.), and the knowledge and experience that I have from pushing over 100Mbps of pr0n traffic is VALUABLE. Funny how this changes perspectives on what I used to do. Now that the people I work with aren't intimidated by knowing what I used to help propigate, I proudly admit that I used to push smut and was damn good at serving porn faster and more efficiently than any one else. I relished the thought that I had written one of the first binary crawlers for the news groups and knew how to write search engines that could spider 100 sites a second. Hey bunk eBay engineer, prove to me that you can do half of that that with perl and a P200, I dare you.

In case it hasn't been said.
One of my first major projects was working with a large group of adult sites. What I find amazing is that it wasn't until after I left that job to another _real world_ job, that I started running into all the sleaze-bags and weasel "businessmen".

I'd also like to empahsize how much adult sites drive the state of the art when it comes to web performance and new technologies. Half the things you take for granted now (streaming _anything_ for example) came from porn first.. I mean come on, why do you think VCR's sold so well in the begining.

I also know from experience that it is really mostly just americans who seem to have this uptight attitude towards sex in general.. I think it's an S&M thing... ;-)

<peace/>

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> What's the purpose or writing code? Make
> things works. What's the purpose of
> making things works? Do some useful
> work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think
> we found the problem here...

Actually, you got it backwards :) The useful thing

isn't porn, it's making money off porn.

Let's be realistic, every porn coder/webmaster is

in it for the money. Whether he/she started just

because he/she liked to look at porn and decided

to toss up a page with their favorite links, in

the end, everyone realises there is cash to be made.

So to me, it is indeed useful to code - I make

money doing it, the money allows me to pay my

bills and spend my free time writing weird articles :)

Re: Share your code

>
> You speak alot about the quality of
> work porn coders produce and the fact
> that it is shared amongst the porn
> coders. Perhaps you should be making
> your work available in an open source
> fashion. Seeing a high level of quality
> work and releasing it as open source
> will certainly gain you alot of respect
> despite the industry you work for.
>
>

I do actually make code available :) The current 2

projects listed on FreshMeat are more or less the

same modules I've used in countless projects - I

just gave them a different name, and wrote up new

docs and sort-of cleaned out most of the comments.

Like I said, I'm not the best coder, sometimes my

code is utterly hackish and in dire need of

fixing, but it does what it needs to do, and it

does it fast (or it was written fast).

The problem with the code sharing is that usually

I don't end up sharing completed projects (there

is such a thing as copyright law that you still

should be careful of) but I do end up sharing

snippets of code or a description of certain

algorithms used, or descriptions of 'how did I do

x, y and z and make it do c too' - for the newbie

programmer or for someone who hasn't ever dealt

with SQL and CGI scripts/mod_perl modules that

gets utterly confusing, and my idea is that

frankly, I won't release anything that you can't

just 'plug in' - no matter how elegant a snippet

of code might be, it's still useless to the

majority of people :)

Wow... :)
Okay I just had to add this; I'm surprised at the

comments so far, I expected to get blasted but so

far it's been real cool :)

To the supportive folks, and the fellow

porn-people (hehe) - thanks for contributing, I

know how hard it can be to 'confess' to what you

do for a living; but heck, someone's bound to find

out anyway :)

One thing I might add that would make my

standpoint seem a bit clearer is the fact I'm

Dutch - seeing as how Holland is a very liberal

country when it comes to sex and such things - my

parents know exactly what I do for a living and

they're cool with it - it does explain why I never

had any problems getting into the adult industry :)

For the poster (sorry, I forgot your name) who

mentioned walking in on a full nude photoshoot -

been there done that, it's funny as heck because

nobody pays you any attention, and yeah, I like

the benefits :) You don't get to watch 2 very

pretty girls doing some very interesting things to

eachother all the time (not to mention the fact

that I spent an enjoyable dinner/evening/night

with one of them *cough* ok.. nuff said).

Re: Matter of preference

> I just can't imagine modifying my code
> just because some stupid jerk mailed the
> management that he didn't like the
> layout of the page. I care about my code
> and more about who gets to use it and
> for what purpose. And a porn coder
> (nice name you invented :)) is bound to
> be in such situations.. I wouldn't like
> that..

Well that's not always the case. I admit,

sometimes it does happen that you have to change

your code to accomodate the design, which is

pretty much the exact other way around from the

real world - there usually the design is made and

the code built according to the design specs - in

'porn' - the code's usually written first, then a

design is made, and any modifications that are

needed to the code to make the design work then

have to be done.

However my 'specialization' of sorts is dynamic

content - so far I've been able to avoid dealing

with design altogether and get a clean separation

of my code v.s. the dynamic content. One of the

things you do learn working on the adult side of

the net is how to be damn efficient - because

stuff that ain't efficient will lead to more work

for you later.

(Ofcourse I still make inefficient programs and

modules, if I'd be 100% efficient all the time I'd

have no social life ;)

Coding for pr0n, lifestyles, et al
I'm a coder working heavily in the adult industry

myself, and while I can agree and sympathize with

some of your points, I think a lot of what you

speak about is a matter of perception... in large

part, self-perception.

I don't think of myself as a "Porn Coder". I'm a

programmer and administrator. I happen to contract

primarily to people in the adult sector. The

skills I've developed and honed over the years

would be immediately transferrable to any other

web-based emplacement... things such as server

optimization (who in the porn world HASN'T pushed

a Terrabyte in a month with a single cheapo Fry's

Electronics box? ;), security auditing,

statistical analysis, billing systems,

live/recorded video distribution, all those and

more are easily transferrable skills. The question

isn't if they can carry over to other jobs, but

how to present that skillset to other people. If

you're a coder FIRST, work in porn second, then

many of the perceptual problems simply melt away.

I've never run into a single instance where my

skills have been deprecated because of thier point

of origin... and lets face it, the only place to

get SOME of the skills employers love to see is in

the pr0n world. (handling extreme traffic loads on

limited hardware, for example... my boxes are

pushing around 1/4 Gbps as we speak) I'm not blind

to the fact that some people have a problem with

online porn and the adult industry in general, but

I'm not worried about finding work, and don't

really care if people think 'less of me' for

working in the industry... I get far more internal

positive reinforcement when I look at the traffic

graphs, knowing that a product that I created will

be served correctly and on time. I sleep well at

night. Particularly well now that most of the

stuff I've built I've been able to recently move

onto a redundant load balanced server farm. ;)

There's some definate advantages working in the

adult industry: The money is good, the work is

demanding but often rewarding, no compelling need

to work in an office (indeed, only the top

producers in the porn world even HAVE offices), no

apparent shortage of people looking for new

products (and thus there's a neverending fount of

opportunity for the entreprenureal programmer).

Add to that the substantial power afforded to an

established coder and administrator, a couple of

paid vacations to Vegas and Miami from time to

time (gotta love IA2000 ;) and it could be your

dream job.

The downsides though can be difficult to overcome:

An ingrained stygma that society tries to drill

into people about sex which you're unfortunately

catching flack from, receivables on work delivered

can be a bitch (and pay-in-advance does *not* work

well), shysters trying to rope you in to work for

margin, potential to be 'sexually desensitized',

an intensely competitive and stressful environment

in terms of technological innovation and, lets

face it, there's some real scumbags out there that

you'd be far better off avoiding. If you have

kids, it's also a difficulty doing some of the

'nastier' work during daylight hours... if you've

ever wondered why porn people keep the night

watch, here's your answer: A suprisingly large

number of participants in the management side are

family men and women, and like to keep thier kids

isolated from the biz until they're old enough to

understand. I was amazed to learn of that the

first time I went to an IA2000 show and saw all

the couples walking around looking at the various

products available.

In any event, be proud to be a coder. Be proud to

be working in the adult industry as well, if you

like. I personally won't look down on you, nor

would anyone else I associate with. At the end of

the day, YOU know you've done good work, been paid

well (hopefully! ;) regardless of being dissed or

propped by non-industry types.

Perhaps I'll see you at IA2000 sometime... just

ask for the long haired Canuck who works for

"Holio". Or drop me an email if you need work

sometime. God knows I've got enough on my plate,

and always have old customers looking for reliable

guys to do the job.

Re: Conformity

> To conclude, people shouldn't apply
> their religious standards to others. If
> someone's coding for a porn site and
> your religion is against pornography but
> their religion or lack of religion has
> nothing to say about such things, you
> should treat that person no different
> than a conforming member of your own
> sect.

But we always use standards of some kind to
determine
with whom we will associate, whom we like, who we
want
to work with etc.
Why should religious standards, or
moral standards even if they
are informed by religious beliefs, be
inappropriate for making
such decisions?
Basically, "Seeking Sin" is complaining that
because people -
for whatever reason - do not like what he does for
a living, they
won't associate with him as he would like. Well,
as long as that's
all he complains about, as long as he is not being
evicted from his
house or apartment, or harrassed in some other
way, his complaints
lack legitimacy. Freedom of association also
means freedom of non-association,
after all.

Re: Wow... :)

> For the poster (sorry, I forgot your name) who
> mentioned walking in on a full nude photoshoot -
> been there done that, it's funny as heck because
> nobody pays you any attention, and yeah, I like
> the benefits :) You don't get to watch 2 very
> pretty girls doing some very interesting things to
> eachother all the time (not to mention the fact
> that I spent an enjoyable dinner/evening/night
> with one of them *cough* ok.. nuff said).

That's one area of ettiquette I never could get
down... if you walk onto a video or photo shoot to
futz with a router or some cabling, and you happen
to know some of the participants, what's the
appropriate thing to do? Smile and give a wave?
Act like you don't see them and just let them
work? Put your fingers into a "V" shape and waggle
your tongue rapidly up and down? (don't attempt
this! ;)

I wonder what Ann Landers would say at a time like
that.

Re: In case it hasn't been said.

> I'd also like to empahsize how much
> adult sites drive the state of the art
> when it comes to web performance and new
> technologies. Half the things you take
> for granted now (streaming _anything_
> for example) came from porn first.. I
> mean come on, why do you think VCR's
> sold so well in the begining.

Don't forget online billing systems, particularly
credit card processing. Without the adult
industry, that'd have been nonexistant at the time
when 'real world' businesses started discovering
the 'net... we'd probably only just now start
getting into the decent, large scale CC processing
companies like those that've been fully
established for the last few years. Of course,
pr0n is still the thorn in the side of many banks
offering merchant accounts (Look at some of the
penalties handed down due to chargebacks! Yikes!)
but we got it in there first...

You ain't alone
Just as a side note. I learned perl doing cgi's in college, and have gotten somewhat sharp at it.

Come graduation time I was in the hunt for a job. One day the phone rings, and I talked to a very nice gentle man.

I spent a total of about 20 mins on the phone, and he was very forth right with information regarding the job. Perl coder, junior level, expected heavy hours, and excellent compentsation. Field: Porn.

He seemed concerned it would turn me away, but frankly I didnt/don't care. I went for the interview, met the staff (all 6 of them) and was very well impressed. They offered me a higher starting salary then the job I eventually took.

The only down side, and what lead to me turning them down, was they wouldn't/couln't pay for my relocation.

It's been a year and occasionally I still fire off an email to them just to touch base.

Bugger everyone else's opinions. If I have to shovel shit or flip burgers, I just want to keep food on the table. But I wouldn't mind my job being challenging an well paid in the process.

Keep it up friend...

Re: You AIN'T alone
The problem that I have with the porn industry is basically the same problem I have with the religious industry - I don't care. I am a "keep your laws off my body" person. The problem is not so much the content - it's the constant spam from porn sites ... and political hacks ... and Bible peddlers ... What you're witnessing is a reaction. It's not such content that people object to, it's that it attracts the attention of ideologues that have opposing views. Face it, any place you go, escpecially public gatherings like conventions, there's always going to be some headline-grabbing DA waiting to score brownie points with the local fundamentalists. And I still cling to my pointy-headed belief that the law is for people that can afford it.

I get really sick of being accused of spamming - happens all the time to FAQ maintainers - and that's one reason that the Linux FAQ is so low-key. But, hey, to the do-gooding fundamentalists, your unwillingness to use your real name is just another admission of guilt. You need to stand up for your work... once they figure out that you're not backing down, you'll get a whole lot more respect - and likely a whole new set of friends to replace the ones that are too spineless or hypocritical to support your work.

Anyways, I just felt the uncontrollable desire to rant. :) Thanks for reading. Maybe you could even give'm a bird, and say it's from me.

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> What's the purpose or writing code? Make
> things works. What's the purpose of
> making things works? Do some useful
> work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think
> we found the problem here...

well, applying that argument, how useful is a

movie (Hollywood or otherwise), a game (from

Solitaire all the way to Quake), and yes: *music*?

So all of those ILM geeks, id software, the XMMS

or Winamp teams and thousands of other talented

coders in entertainment might as well go and find

a *real* job coding for a financial institution or

other useful work...

Re: You AIN'T alone

> Face it, any place you go, escpecially
> public gatherings like conventions,
> there's always going to be some
> headline-grabbing DA waiting to score
> brownie points with the local
> fundamentalists.

I guess we've been pretty lucky with IA2000 in
Vegas, Miami and elsewhere. Not only have there
been no protests or anything of that nature,
there's been no real legal interference at all
(except when a near-riot broke out because people
weren't being let into a big party that just had
gotten TOO big, but that'll happen anywhere you
get a bunch of people and alcohol together in the
same place ;).

As for the spam, not all pr0n places spam.
In fact, most rely on banner ads for branding and
client aquisition. It's far more lucurative, and
garners much fewer nastygrams. There's also a
couple opt-in (I mean real opt-in, where
you plug your email address into a box and click
on a button that says 'send me porn', not some
fakeo 'opt in' thing where all the email addresses
were purchased) mailing lists where some might
consider it spam were it not for it being opt in.

I see way more spam for 'get rich quick' than I do
see spam for 'get off quick'... altho with my
pseudonym being what it is, I do get an incredible
amount of JIS/EUC/BIG5 encoded stuff that I have
no clue what's being said. Maybe that's all asian
pr0n. ;)

I think I know how you feel..

I do not do any coding for porn companies, but for almost 5 years years now I have been doing a lot of coding (perl,php,java) for a fanclub website for a famous female

singer and I noticed that it sometimes feels awkward to talk about it with other geeks...

And if I do I, often get the feeling I'm not taking seriously...

The site has been running for a while on a P100/64mb and Linux 2.0 and still handles

the heavy traffic it gets and it certainly learned me how to tweak performance of

the system, scripts and webserver to it's maximum...

As I do this in my spare time, I don't get paid the big bucks you guys do, but I do have

had a lot of wonderful experiences thanks to my work...

Ricardo.

ps: For a while we had a guy working at the company I work for who used to be an adult webmaster, but he wasn't as experienced in coding as he claimed to be... he was kind of a weird fellow too; but I guess you find that kind of people in any area....

How do I...
Hmm, this thread raised an interesting subject. It actually

re-kindled something I hadn't thought about in a while.

I am curious, and I hope some of the more experienced here will respond, as to how I could get into this work?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be doing it to just because I am into porn (although I am). For the last few years, I've done sysadmin stuff for some large sites hosted with large hosting companies. And I learnded alot. I kinda miss it. Something like this would allow me to get back to some of that. Supplemental income is always welcome too. And I have quite a few friends who are in dire need of that!

Anyway, SeekingSin, and any others who have worked in the online side of the adult entertainment industry, how would someone looking for a new challenge get into this

business? Feel free to reply via e-mail.

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> What's the purpose or writing code? Make
> things works. What's the purpose of
> making things works? Do some useful
> work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think
> we found the problem here...

"Do some useful work?"? Since when hacking is supposed to be useful? I agree that it can be, but it doesn't have to. That's always been the case.

Offhand, I remember the story from Steven Levy's "Hackers" book, where the TMRC hackers from MIT were up all night coding things like an arabic (normal) numerals to roman numerals. Couldn't be less useful. But it has hack value, it is cool.

Re: How do I...

> I am curious, and I hope some of the
> more experienced here will respond, as
> to how I could get into this work?
>
%Feel free to reply via

Haha,

Yeah really. Its about time I got some good pay

for something. I don't care what the content is.

Wouldn't happen in Europe
I think this is justone example how outdated USA can be what comes to sexuality. From Scandinavian perspective I have even hard to imagine the discrimination you have faced.

This man lives in Paradise
You have all the pr0n in the world to watch and also get paid for working on it. Jesus, are you living in the paradise or what.

I'll bet you also have the phonenumbers to the best chicks in this pr0n collection. There are people that would cut of an arm or leg just to get access to your collection of photos.

As you know, the guy with the largest pr0n collection wins the game.

//Gunnar

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> What's the purpose or writing code? Make
> things works. What's the purpose of
> making things works? Do some useful
> work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think
> we found the problem here...

I dont really see the point of your Reply. It was just as narrow minded as the people the article was written about. Just because he writes for porn sites I can almost guarantee a lot of the same scripts could be used for other "useful" things.

Re: Conformity

> Some groups forbid the
> consumption of alcohol and/or gambling.
> ...
> Further, I believe that people should
> be free to join and leave religious
> groups without harassment.
>
> I am a highly moral and ethical
> person, probably more so than many
> people who profess to be religious. But
> I don't believe in God and I refuse to
> conform to many religious sects'
> beliefs.

You've got a great point. I recently got into a discussion at school about religion. One of my main points was on how christianity can be two faced in the fact that it says people will be forced to believe a lie. This comes from the prediction of judgement day. I stated that christians are alot like this in the sense that they tend to shun anyone who is not "christian" and will force their belief upon other people. Immediately I was asked if I had been baptised, my answer, no. The person that asked me continued to spew out nonsense from the bible. Someone eventually pointed out to her that I was basing my beliefs from things that I have seen go on in life and that she was doing exactly what I had been pointing out. She had been attempting to force her beliefs from a "book" upon me. She became rather upset and frustrated that she could not maintain a proper composure throughout the remainder of the discussion. The funny thing about this is that my class contains a variety of beliefs and religions on life. Christianity, the major belief in the United States, seems to be one of the few beliefs that shun away from man's natural tendancies. Porn is a good thing, it provides jobs and economic growth through the world. The coding used on porn sites also helps to increase the intensity of coding expectations through out the business world. Why should places such as IBM, Gateway, and etc. beforced to accept second best coding? Porn sites have been using databases for years and most likely code security as well. Bring it on, bring the light of real code and community work to the people and their daily lives. We need to stop allowing our peers to de-evolve into "apes" and teach them to use their brains again.

I don't mind porn!
I don't mind porn sites. Hell, I've visited / do visit my share of 'em from time to time. My only problem with porn sites is the way in which they "market" themselves by spamming the entire freaking world, or by allowing their "associates" to do so. Sure they *claim* they nuke the associate when they get reports, unfortunately they make it too easy for their associates to continue spamvertising their service.

I'd like to see your clients (and other porn vendors) take a more pro-active approach to marketing their product. How? I dunno... but I certainly don't think it's proper for them to "spamvertise" the hell out of the rest of the world!

Just my $.02.

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> Actually, you got it backwards :) The
> useful thing isn't porn, it's making
> money off porn.

Let's say "usefulness" has something to do with "values". Money is not a value, it's energy. But the way you share this energy depends on your values.

If you want to write code for the sole purpose of writing code and making money, then being a "porn coder" is one way to achieve this goal.

You can't ask all people to agree with the finality of your work. We're humans, not machines.

You can't force people to like you
I work for an online advertising agency. You think
people like me? We make flash ads, java banners,
DHTML ads, interstitials and whatever else the client
wants or we can come up with. If people don't like me
because of that I can't make it my lifes crusade to
convince them, I have to find new friends. Now loosing
friends or family to that problem is different and there
should be some time spent there about 'it takes all
kinds' and what not.

I'm not going to try and compare your way of life to
some of the other minorities in life that get shit on all
the time because they never had a chance. You went
down an unpopular road, you are well paid, what more
do you want? You want the best of both worlds? You
want to be looked at like Mother Theresa and yet still
pull in the big fat wads of cash? The world usually
doesn't work that way, and if it does it doesn't last very
long.

But really, don't waste time on people you know you
can't "convert" to your way of thinking. The Pope
doesn't like you, get over it ;-)

Hmmm... a porn coder?
Oh, wait, maybe I have seen the work of some porn

coders. Aren't you the guys who write the code

that spams my users with deceptive email that

drags their browser off to sites they didn't want

to go to and then, when they try to leave, pops up

endless numbers of new windows until their browser

crashes? :-)

You 're in the wrong company
Hey there,

You state you are Dutch and all the people you meet seem to dislike the fact you code for pr0nsites.

Well, I'm dutch too, I've been around for a few years working on the 'net and I've seen lots of companies and people that really don't mind what you code for.

If you were from the US, I'd say move to the Netherlands, you are already here, so I don't see a problem anymore.

IT'S THE CODE STUPID! (Was: It's not the code, stupid)

> What's the purpose or writing code? Make
> things works. What's the purpose of
> making things works? Do some useful
> work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think
> we found the problem here...

I can't believe this comment... While our individual morals certainly should not be considered insignificant. Look at the advances that have been made in the name of science that one person or another claims are immoral.

Military research drove the birth of the Internet in the first place. I know many people that would shudder at working for a military contractor, yet they work with, and promote the Internet.

If we shunned technology that was produced with any connection to something of questionable morals, we would be in the dark ages, quite literally.

I have a lot of experience working in the embedded systems world, and in the last several years the area of embedded linux, and embedded web servers. The whole issue of high performance in a small area is something that far too many people ignore. (see Microsoft Bloatware as an extreme example.)

We should not be shutting the technology (and it's developers) of this industry out, but looking at what we can learn and how to promote technology as solutions to real problems. If it makes some guys porn site run faster, and that bugs you, then you probably should be supporting taxing the Internet, and censorship as well...

We could start a new movement: Programmers without borders.

Re: You can't force people to like you
no you can't force people to like you and I think thats very much to the point..we as a society of people have a goal very specific...spirituality..

not sure?..read the bible
don't read it word for word either...read it with "soul"..
not just the brain dead clamouring of religious zealots of the time but the "real bible" ...the stuff from Jesus Christ....

thats where its at...why am I slithering down this road to use religion ( which many porners will condemn me for immediately ) against porn..?

because its appropriate thats why...

does pornography have anything to hide?
anything to be ashamed of?

in the eye of the beholder you will say..

who eyes...your own or gods..

don't believe in god you say?

ha...look around or at
http://www.imyourhandiman.com/indextwo.html

and don't forget your own heart and soul while you're at it..

I frankly grow weary of my inbox being flooded with this nasty filth but hey sure I can filter and delete no problem!! and I do :)-= LOL!!!!!!

so you know it works both ways people..i mean self-righteous attitudes.....

but getting down to brass tacks..what did christ tell the whore in the streets to do......and what did he say to her?

he said "I love you..but sin no more"..

what does that mean to us?

you be the judge and jury..i am neither..

but I think the message is clear..god loves his children but frankly I think god grows weary of our indescretions and willingness to throw the goodness of love out the porn windows.......:)

thanks for listening

Re: IT'S THE CODE STUPID! (Was: It's not the code, stupid)

> I can't believe this comment... While
> our individual morals certainly should
> not be considered insignificant. Look
> at the advances that have been made in
> the name of science that one person or
> another claims are immoral.

We all know some "immoral" activities are driving

technology; porn, weapons, drugs... If technology

is all you care about and you're not concerned

about it's usage, then fine, do whatever can drive

technology and makes you happy.

> We could start a new movement:

> Programmers without borders.

How progressive...

It ain't the porn
It's the crap the litters my inbox.
And you are part of it.

Proud eh?
If you're so proud to be a porn coder, why are you
hiding behind an anonymous name? Why is your
personal page private?

Before you condem your fellow coders for shying
away from you, look at how you're hiding the truth.

Is it because you don't want your family and friends
who live nearby to know the real you?

I'm not anti-porn by any means, by the way. But I'd
probably blush and change the subject or even walk
away if someone told me they were involved in the
porn industry.

So don't expect strangers to act any different from
how your parents or members of your community
would react when you mention that you do work for
the porn industry.

Be proud of your code. Until you can actually be
proud of working in the porn industry, just calm
down a little.

In the world of business, no one cares
I think your age is showing. Seems that you are somehow taking personally what you "think" other people may "think" about your code ending up in porn site systems.

If you feel good about what you code, it won't matter what people think. If you have misgivings about the application of your code, then you need to come to terms with yourself.

No one really cares

power to do what you whish.
There is no reason for anyone to treat you the way they do.

You cause no harm.

You cause no damage.

code on a feel sorry for the lost ones for they are sheep and will be eaten at sunday diner.

It's just proof that someone has been peeing in the gene pool

Interesting
I can't honestly say I've ever met someone that codes for adult sites - or at least no one who has told me that they do.

Frankly, I don't think I'd shun someone who codes for adult sites - so long as they don't code for kiddie porn or something like that. If adults want to look at other naked adults who are willing to let photos be taken of them while naked...it's their business. Thanks to the Web they can do it in the privacy of their home without the risk of offending anyone who doesn't want to look at naked pictures.

It might not have been what Larry Wall had in mind when he invented Perl, but as long as it doesn't hurt anybody then it doesn't bother me. I don't have to look at it if I don't want to.

(Of course, if you're responsible for coding the software that sends me porn spam, I'd really appreciate it if you stop...)

Zonker

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> What's the purpose or writing code? Make
> things works. What's the purpose of
> making things works? Do some useful
> work. What's useful? Porn. Oops, I think
> we found the problem here...

I don't know. This comment can be taken in two ways as far as I can see it. 1) He's stupid for coding for porn sites or 2) The use of the code on a porn site has nothing to do with it.

I'd like to refute both of them. I do not personally know this person or the code they have created. As is said in my previous thread, porn helps the global economy grow. Nothing wrong with that. The code may be far superior than anything "normal" sites use. We won't know, especially if people disregard such people as bad people. The guy can't be a pure ass if he's able to work with others in developing code. So then what is it ? "stupid" Read into my article that I'll be posting soon.

Seeking Sin
Some of my best friends are professional sex workers and they

are some of the most wonderful human beings on the planet -

compassionate, well-educated - professional in every way. I

don't put down the porn industry; it serves a human need. More

power to the programmer who can help make it available to the

masses!

code is code
I think the point that's being missed by all of those biased towards porn coders is that code is code.

A coder codes to accomplish a task (i believe this was said above). The environment in which the code is produced (for) influences how efficient the code has to be. I'm glad you stepped forward with your post as it gives awareness of what is going on. I started my work in the Internet business as a Sysadmin at a small ISP. In such an environment, efficiency is key, because costs can NOT be high. As a result I fully appreciate the time and effort required in doing anything efficiently.

As for all of the people who look down upon you.. Well, I would just laugh them off, because you know what? They're probably among the most prominent groups using the facilities you program. They're just ashamed of it for whatever reason (i'll leave sociology and society out of this one :)). I commend you my friend, keep up the good work.

Re: Interesting

> If adults want to look at other naked adults
> who are willing to let photos be taken of them
> while naked...it's their business.
> Thanks to the Web they can do it in the
> privacy of their home without the risk
> of offending anyone who doesn't want to
> look at naked pictures.

I think pornography on the Internet does more than just that. First of all it's available not only to adults but in fact to anyone who looks for it (and even for those who don't - just type www.woman.com into your browser, and there you go -- oops... that's a gay site. oh, well). It also advocates a "misconception" (at least in my eyes but I am sure most of you will agree) of females in society by proclaiming their (women's) permanent availabity as things to be posessed or objects to be used by men. Ultimately, I think that pornography is very likey to have a negative impact on those who are easy to manipulate. Of course pornography does not kill people, it does not even _directly_ make people rape other people, but it very likely adds to an atmosphere that makes violence against or offensive behavious towards women more probable.

So in that context I would say that it is perfectly right to view pornography as something "dirty" or "immoral"...

If you are happy writing CGI scripts for porn companies then that's your choice but you should stop whining about not getting approval from all sides because pornography is in fact not a business like any other business.

Bank
Bank. It's all about bank! If you work for an adult website, so what. If I could get a phat job with an adult website company making mad bank for my PHP and Sysadmin skills, I'd go for it in a sec! "F*** the naysayers 'cuz they don't mean a thing..."

Re: Hmmm... a porn coder?

> Oh, wait, maybe I have seen the work of
> some porn
> coders. Aren't you the guys who write
> the code
> that spams my users with deceptive
> email that
> drags their browser off to sites they
> didn't want
> to go to and then, when they try to
> leave, pops up
> endless numbers of new windows until
> their browser
> crashes? :-)

Ha gotta agree with this one, perhaps it isn't the "porn" that people dislike about you guys, but the scumbag-like techniques used to get a webhit. Porn sites make the worst spammers, they should all be shot..;)

Re: About time
Paraphrasing that famous line from When Harry Met
Sally.... I'll work where he's working! ;-)

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> 1) He's stupid for coding for porn sites

He's stupid to ask people to accept porn because

he's a good coder. His self estime problem can't

be resolved only by stating he's a good coder.

> 2) The use of the code on a porn site

> has nothing to do with it.

Programming skills has nothing to do with porn.

Using programming skills to make money with porn

is why some people don't want to get in touch with

"porn coders". Is that so difficult to understand?

> porn helps the global economy grow.

> Nothing wrong with that.

That's very unfortunate. Economy should be driven

by something else than porn, wars and drugs. I

just can't agree with this very fascist view of

what the economy should be. That's too depressing.

do you actually expect pity?
I'm glad it hurts your life to be looked down upon, that is what you get for being associated with the worst spammers on the internet, may your children and your childrens children suffer the same fate.

Re: Wouldn't happen in Europe

> I think this is justone example how
> outdated USA can be what comes to
> sexuality. From Scandinavian perspective
> I have even hard to imagine the
> discrimination you have faced.

Outdated as it may be, it is still the best country in the free world.

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> 1) He's stupid for coding for porn sites

He's stupid to ask people to accept porn because

he's a good coder. His self estime problem can't

be resolved only by stating he's a good coder.

> 2) The use of the code on a porn site

> has nothing to do with it.

Programming skills has nothing to do with porn.

Using programming skills to make money with porn

is why some people don't want to get in touch with

"porn coders". Is that so difficult to understand?

> porn helps the global economy grow.

> Nothing wrong with that.

That's very unfortunate. Economy should be driven

by something else than porn, wars and drugs. I

just can't agree with this very fascist view of

what the economy should be. That's too depressing.

Re: It's not the code, stupid

>
> % 1) He's stupid for coding for porn
> sites
>
>
> He's stupid to ask people to accept
> porn because
> he's a good coder. His self estime
> problem can't
> be resolved only by stating he's a
> good coder.
>
>
> % 2) The use of the code on a porn
> site
> % has nothing to do with it.
>
>
> Programming skills has nothing to do
> with porn.
> Using programming skills to make money
> with porn
> is why some people don't want to get
> in touch with
> "porn coders". Is that so
> difficult to understand?
>
>
> % porn helps the global economy
> grow.
> % Nothing wrong with that.
>
>
> That's very unfortunate. Economy
> should be driven
> by something else than porn, wars and
> drugs. I
> just can't agree with this very
> fascist view of
> what the economy should be. That's too
> depressing.
>
>

The the world's economy is not driven by porn, it's driven by violence, hate, and lust. Out of these three things comes compassion, love, and healing. I don't say that people should accept him coding for porn, rather I say that people should look beyond that and actually wonder if his code is good. Besides porn is not that much different from another well used industry that people like to shun away from, prostitution. Porn is alot better than prosititution in many ways. For instance the woman are not being paid to sleep with over a hundred different guys in their life span, merely to show off their stuff or other interesting feats.

On another note, prostitution has brought civilization in itself along way. It was once used practically, as a method of healing. Do we not proclaim our human past as being evil when proclaiming a safer form of it, even worse?. Hell, soldiers often go to prostitutes during wartime. What's wrong with that? No one insults them. .
Perhaps it is the people who do not understand and claim that certain parts of life are not useful that really should be shunned upon. I mean come on, drugs and sex, two very profitable businesses that have lead to many advances in technology. Hate and violence, two human qualities that lead to modern computers.
Weapons of war lead to the internet. Radical views? Yes. The truth? YES!

People should look upon their own past before judging others by who they work for. It's often those we despise that create the new opportunities for us all.

A craftsman builds a gun - that itself - does not kill

A most intersting topic and leaning a bit off the main subject that mainly belongs here.

I would not have a problem with your skill sets and in many ways I even envy them. Working in the rest of the world doing software (usually on a shoestring) I would not get to attempt the kinds of things you do (technically that is, not having the women and men you get to meet/watch, they are NOTHING to admire/idolize).

If I had a business and had need of your skills, then hey, come and apply. Your ability to create and deliver would be most welcome. I'm assuming that you're more like the guy who builds the gun (although you very well intend for it to be able to kill and do a damn good job of it). And your technical peers can sort of appreciate that work. You're not the hand that shoots it -or are you?

Mankind brings the decadence of the world upon himself. Some of you even say/acknowledge it - keep what you do from the kids till they grow up!

This is classic greed and big business without regard to morals and ethics (lets not even bring religion into the picture, just cause and effect). Daddy/Mommy goes to work and markets crap to the world, often targeting children/teens and then hipocritically goes home and says -No, you cannot do that! All this in the quest for more money. Like these filth rappers, we get the music industry hiding behind free speech only so they can make money and at the same time, their own kids are pumped full of the crap. You sacrifice the well being of your own children (not necessarily literally) - You come to terms with yourself. None of this is the road to true happiness or peace of mind - just a thicker wallet and a nice new SUV.

I on occasion will visit some of these sites mainly out of curiosity and even more, but mainly tend to avoid them, NOT because I dislike porn, but because they are just traps that suck you in to get you to see the mostest and gross-est and the sickest. And among you, is ongoing competition to beat the others - which only worsens it overall. You want to lure me in to give you my credit card, then you'll track me, then you'll spam me, then you'll target me with products and you'll sell my email address and more if you can get it. You will extract every iota of whatever you can from my very observation. I have no privacy in comming to visit your sites because you will just use it against me and to hound me endlessly. Your industry uses people - but maybe that's just more obvious in yours than all the rest!

I hate the pages that don't let you go by pasting more windows over and over. None of you in the industry actually care about your presentation, descretion or class. If it was blood and not money you want, then you'd figure out how to suck my blood digitally.

I also agree with other posters - stop your whinning and you also are showing your age and immaturity.

Laboring under a misconception
You are wrong when you say "performance is king". Suppose you had worked for a child pornography site, which featured images of rape and abuse. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Would I want you on my programming team even if you were the best coder in the world? I would rather work with someone who did not tolerate and perpetuate the spread of child pornography, and many reasonable people would agree. Even if you were to claim "I'm only in it for the programming", you would still be guilty by passive association. If you are just arguing that "normal" pornography is just more acceptable than child pornography and therefore you should accepted into mainstream programming society, then you are just imposing your own moral standards on others.

Re: Wouldn't happen in Europe

>
> % I think this is justone example
> how
> % outdated USA can be what comes to
> % sexuality. From Scandinavian
> perspective
> % I have even hard to imagine the
> % discrimination you have faced.
>
>
> Outdated as it may be, it is still the
> best country in the free world.

Well, think what you want, but don't assume that everyone else have same opinions as you.

Re: Conformity

>
> % To conclude, people shouldn't
> apply
> % their religious standards to others.
> If
> % someone's coding for a porn site
> and
> % your religion is against pornography
> but
> % their religion or lack of religion
> has
> % nothing to say about such things,
> you
> % should treat that person no
> different
> % than a conforming member of your
> own
> % sect.
>
>
> But we always use standards of some
> kind to
> determine
> with whom we will associate, whom we
> like, who we
> want
> to work with etc.
> Why should religious standards, or
> moral standards even if they
> are informed by religious beliefs,
> be
> inappropriate for making
> such decisions?
> Basically, "Seeking Sin" is
> complaining that
> because people -
> for whatever reason - do not like what
> he does for
> a living, they
> won't associate with him as he would
> like. Well,
> as long as that's
> all he complains about, as long as he
> is not being
> evicted from his
> house or apartment, or harrassed in
> some other
> way, his complaints
> lack legitimacy. Freedom of
> association also
> means freedom of non-association,
> after all.
>

Well I have no problem with people who use

standards to determine who they hang out with,

after all I do it too; but in my case, I've

encountered a lot of people who don't use their

own standards, or even their own religious

standards, but just crumble under the "oh my god

what if someone would find out that..." pressure.

(And I'm not forcing them to associate with me,

it's just a bit funny that even people as

open-minded as most programmers still succumb to

the media-driven image that porn is bad, hence

everyone who has anything to do with it is bad)

Re: Wow... :)

>
> % For the poster (sorry, I forgot your
> name) who
> % mentioned walking in on a full nude
> photoshoot -
> % been there done that, it's funny as
> heck because
> % nobody pays you any attention, and
> yeah, I like
> % the benefits :) You don't get to
> watch 2 very
> % pretty girls doing some very
> interesting things to
> % eachother all the time (not to
> mention the fact
> % that I spent an enjoyable
> dinner/evening/night
> % with one of them *cough* ok.. nuff
> said).
>
>
> That's one area of ettiquette I never
> could get
> down... if you walk onto a video or
> photo shoot to
> futz with a router or some cabling,
> and you happen
> to know some of the participants,
> what's the
> appropriate thing to do? Smile and
> give a wave?
> Act like you don't see them and just
> let them
> work? Put your fingers into a "V"
> shape and waggle
> your tongue rapidly up and down?
> (don't attempt
> this! ;)
>
> I wonder what Ann Landers would say at
> a time like
> that.
>

LOL I have no idea, usually if I know one or two

of the people involved I just tend to go futz with

the router and on my way out I'll just go "hey!

how's it hangin?" and reduce people to laughter -

if I don't know anyone I usually hang around for a

bit (no pun intended) and then wander off back to

work :>

Re: Wouldn't happen in Europe

>
> %
> % % I think this is justone example
> % how
> % % outdated USA can be what comes
> to
> % % sexuality. From Scandinavian
> % perspective
> % % I have even hard to imagine the
> % % discrimination you have faced.
> %
> %
> % Outdated as it may be, it is still
> the
> % best country in the free world.
>
%
> Well, think what you want, but don't
> assume that everyone else have same
> opinions as you.

The same goes for you, your the one who started this into a country war, the author stated he was NOT fromn the US yet you felt free to introduce your own prejudice, don't claim to be better when you flame other countires..take that stuff to /.

Re: Coding for pr0n, lifestyles, et al

> Perhaps I'll see you at IA2000
> sometime... just
> ask for the long haired Canuck who
> works for
> "Holio". Or drop me an email
> if you need work
> sometime. God knows I've got enough on
> my plate,
> and always have old customers looking
> for reliable
> guys to do the job.

Well if you were at the IA2000 in Vegas in January

(or the "InterNext" .. I still can't believe they

changed the name ) - I worked for CyberErotica at

the time so I spent 3 days in the booth across

from the Holio one :) I think I got my ugly mug

captured on some IA2K pics too :>

Re: How do I...

> Hmm, this thread raised an interesting
> subject. It actually
> re-kindled something I hadn't thought
> about in a while.
>
> I am curious, and I hope some of the
> more experienced here will respond, as
> to how I could get into this work?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be
> doing it to just because I am into porn
> (although I am). For the last few years,
> I've done sysadmin stuff for some large
> sites hosted with large hosting
> companies. And I learnded alot. I kinda
> miss it. Something like this would allow
> me to get back to some of that.
> Supplemental income is always welcome
> too. And I have quite a few friends who
> are in dire need of that!
>
> Anyway, SeekingSin, and any others who
> have worked in the online side of the
> adult entertainment industry, how would
> someone looking for a new challenge get
> into this
> business? Feel free to reply via
> e-mail.

How to get into this work.. hmm, I can't really

give you a good answer for that because for me it

was just coincidence - however, you can check out

http://www.adultstaffing.com/ and look under the

'Technology' category.

Another option that works is to look at the

'bigger' companies out there and see if they're

offering jobs. I know that umm, Adult Revenue

Service (they're based in Michigan) is looking for

all sorts of people

(http://www.adultrevenueservice.com/). I also know

that one company that is looking for Linux admins

is Split Infinity networks in California, they're

a hosting company with a large # of adult hosters

- I saw their job posting on linux.com in the jobs

section :)

Re: I don't mind porn!

> I don't mind porn sites. Hell, I've
> visited / do visit my share of 'em from
> time to time. My only problem with porn
> sites is the way in which they
> "market" themselves by
> spamming the entire freaking world, or
> by allowing their "associates"
> to do so. Sure they *claim* they nuke
> the associate when they get reports,
> unfortunately they make it too easy for
> their associates to continue
> spamvertising their service.
>
> I'd like to see your clients (and
> other porn vendors) take a more
> pro-active approach to marketing their
> product. How? I dunno... but I certainly
> don't think it's proper for them to
> "spamvertise" the hell out of
> the rest of the world!
>
> Just my $.02.

Well to just to clarify a point - yes, there are

an immense amount of sites that thrive off of

spamming the living world to pieces. However, even

within the adult industry we have a whole bunch of

unwritten rules. Believe it or not, but any honest

adult webmaster will stay _far_ away from spam. I

for one was asked to write an e-mail harvester

once and I declined.

The adult industry is well on it's way to

self-policing to make sure that things happen

within the narrow confines of the obscenity laws -

i.e. people who run sites full of kiddie porn are

quickly dealt with (as quick as we can anyway, the

FBI and other govt. agencies haven't been too

helpful with this in the past). And any webmaster

who has ever engaged in any 'illegal' activity

(including spamming) is usually totally ignored by

the others.

So yeah, the scumbags in the industry (there are a

few) do give the entire industry a bad image at

times, so please, try to remember not everyone

spams :)

Re: Interesting
% I think pornography on the Internet
> does more than just that. First of all
> it's available not only to adults but in
> fact to anyone who looks for it (and
> even for those who don't - just type
> www.woman.com into your browser, and
> there you go -- oops... that's a gay
> site. oh, well). It also advocates a
> "misconception" (at least in
> my eyes but I am sure most of you will
> agree) of females in society by
> proclaiming their (women's) permanent
> availabity as things to be posessed or
> objects to be used by men. Ultimately, I
> think that pornography is very likey to
> have a negative impact on those who are
> easy to manipulate. Of course
> pornography does not kill people, it
> does not even _directly_ make people
> rape other people, but it very likely
> adds to an atmosphere that makes
> violence against or offensive behavious
> towards women more probable.

I don't buy that. Rape and violence towards women existed long before porn, and it was considered more societally acceptable before the advent of photographs or videos of naked women.

I respect your right not to participate in porn, or to view it or to condone it. Some adults, however, don't share your feelings and choose to make money by letting people take photos of them naked...they have a right to do that, even if you do feel that it's morally wrong.

I also note that you fixate on women in porn. Do you approve of men posing naked, or being objectified? I don't agree that women are automatically objectified by posing naked, that argument is a logical fallacy based more on emotion than facts.

Frankly, if you want to stamp out something that objectifies and does harm to women, get rid of womens' magazines that tell women how skinny they need to be and how they need to wear makeup to "please their man" and TupperWear catalogs that only show smiling women proud to be happy homemakers displaying TupperWear like grinning idiots. If you're a feminist, porn is the least of your worries. Porn is usually viewed as sexual fantasy - most media portrays an image of women they're expected to live up to 24/7 that causes a huge number of women to suffer depression, bulemia, anorexia and dozens of other media-inflicted psychological disorders. Don't belive me? Go to one so-called "primative" culture, and you'll still find violence and rape - but I challenge you to find one case of anorexia or clinical depression.

> So in that context I would say that it
> is perfectly right to view pornography
> as something "dirty" or
> "immoral"...

That's your choice. All I said was that I wouldn't shun someone because they write code for porn sites, and that I personally don't think that porn is that bad.

> If you are happy writing CGI scripts
> for porn companies then that's your
> choice but you should stop whining about
> not getting approval from all sides
> because pornography is in fact not a
> business like any other business.

This really isn't a reply to my comment, it's a reply to the author - I don't write CGI, I'm not really a coder.

I do agree that it's a problem that children can easily browse porn on the Internet. However, that's almost as much fault of the parents - if you have children, you need to be able to supervise them. I assure you, even young boys that don't have Internet connections will find some way to look at naked women when they start hitting puberty - even if it means going to the library and digging through the National Geographics in hopes of seeing a stray nipple. And this is not because they are seeking to objectify women, it's curiosity and raging hormones.

Zonker

Re: You 're in the wrong company

> Hey there,
>
> You state you are Dutch and all the
> people you meet seem to dislike the fact
> you code for pr0nsites.
> Well, I'm dutch too, I've been around
> for a few years working on the 'net and
> I've seen lots of companies and people
> that really don't mind what you code
> for.
>
> If you were from the US, I'd say move
> to the Netherlands, you are already
> here, so I don't see a problem anymore.

Haha not quite :)

I said I was Dutch, that's correct - I never

mentioned where I live - I actually live in the

US, California to be exact.

Re: do you actually expect pity?

> I'm glad it hurts your life to be looked
> down upon, that is what you get for
> being associated with the worst spammers
> on the internet, may your children and
> your childrens children suffer the same
> fate.

Sadly you have a point, but I'm not associated

with those spammers out of free will - more or

less because they live in the same industry. I

mentioned it before, but not all porn sites spam

:) I for one have never written one bit of code

that could be used to spam with. The only thing

that came close to it was a full double opt-in

mailinglist (i.e. you enter your email address,

you get an email that asks you to confirm your

subscription by clicking a link, etc.).

Re: Laboring under a misconception

> You are wrong when you say
> "performance is king".
> Suppose you had worked for a child
> pornography site, which featured images
> of rape and abuse. Sounds horrible,
> doesn't it? Would I want you on my
> programming team even if you were the
> best coder in the world? I would rather
> work with someone who did not tolerate
> and perpetuate the spread of child
> pornography, and many reasonable people
> would agree. Even if you were to claim
> "I'm only in it for the
> programming", you would still be
> guilty by passive association. If you
> are just arguing that "normal"
> pornography is just more acceptable than
> child pornography and therefore you
> should accepted into mainstream
> programming society, then you are just
> imposing your own moral standards on
> others.

Your point is entirely based on the assumption

that I would have no problem working on a child

porn site, or any other coder for that matter. I

do. I won't go near it, and if I notice anyone

running a kiddie porn site, I'll do everything I

can to get them shut down. In case you haven't

noticed, most 'kiddie porn' sites that are out

there (sadly) exist on free hosts such as

geocities, or any adult free host that doesn't

police their sites well enough. They have no

high-tech stuff, they don't co-locate their own

servers, let alone hire coders to do coding. Why's

that you think? Because we 'the porn people' don't

like them either.

I think the hatred towards kiddie porners is a lot

higher in the adult industry than it is in the

'normal' world.

I am indeed claiming that pornography isn't a bad

thing (the normal variety at least) but I am not

imposing my moral views on others. I did say that,

in my opinion, I should be accepted in normal

society - I never said I am trying to force people

to see my point. I wrote this article to call it

to attention, and I wrote it to start an

intelligent discussion about the topic - if you

don't like porn, or the people that work in the

adult industry, hey that's perfectly fine with me

- you don't have to like me, all I ask is that you

think about a few of the things that I mentioned.

If you still don't like me, hey, that's fine, I

have no problems with that at all :)

Re: do you actually expect pity?

>
> % I'm glad it hurts your life to be
> looked
> % down upon, that is what you get
> for
> % being associated with the worst
> spammers
> % on the internet, may your children
> and
> % your childrens children suffer the
> same
> % fate.
>
>
> Sadly you have a point, but I'm not
> associated
> with those spammers out of free will -
> more or
> less because they live in the same
> industry. I
> mentioned it before, but not all porn
> sites spam
> :) I for one have never written one
> bit of code
> that could be used to spam with. The
> only thing
> that came close to it was a full
> double opt-in
> mailinglist (i.e. you enter your email
> address,
> you get an email that asks you to
> confirm your
> subscription by clicking a link,
> etc.).

Well, that may or may not be the case (that you don't spam), but theres still one point because of porn sites you have created the perfect argument for internet censorship groups, because of people like you and their respective companies, censorship groups have a powerful weapon, you put the free internet in jepordy, and we all lose on that point.

Various things....
Okay, I feel the need again to slap another

comment on here.

For those of you who say that I should stop my

whining; Actually I'm not whining - I'm perfectly

okay with people shunning me or not liking me

because of what I do for a living. The article

merely focuses on the point that 'porn' directly

equates to 'go away, you sinner' (in a really

generalised way that is).

For those of you who said that I'm showing my age;

maybe I am, but think about this - the average age

of coders in the porn world is between 21 and 25.

Some of the biggest porn peddling companies are

run by 23 year olds. Some 18 year olds drive 2001

Chevvy Corvette's around the block because they

made damn fine money off of peddling porn.

So maybe I'm showing my age, but maybe it's just

the fact that the porn industry is in general

comprised of younger people - so you immediately

have the added bonus of something like a

'generation gap' to also deal with.

Please note however, that I am in no way implying

that everyone should like me - heck, I said it in

the article, feel free to hate me, I dont't care

:) Just try to see it from my point of view before

you condemn me - that's after all, the respectable

'human' thing to do :)

Re: do you actually expect pity?

>
> %
> % % I'm glad it hurts your life to
> be
> % looked
> % % down upon, that is what you get
> % for
> % % being associated with the worst
> % spammers
> % % on the internet, may your
> children
> % and
> % % your childrens children suffer
> the
> % same
> % % fate.
> %
> %
> % Sadly you have a point, but I'm
> not
> % associated
> % with those spammers out of free will
> -
> % more or
> % less because they live in the same
> % industry. I
> % mentioned it before, but not all
> porn
> % sites spam
> % :) I for one have never written
> one
> % bit of code
> % that could be used to spam with.
> The
> % only thing
> % that came close to it was a full
> % double opt-in
> % mailinglist (i.e. you enter your
> email
> % address,
> % you get an email that asks you to
> % confirm your
> % subscription by clicking a link,
> % etc.).
>
>
>
>
> Well, that may or may not be the case
> (that you don't spam), but theres still
> one point because of porn sites you have
> created the perfect argument for
> internet censorship groups, because of
> people like you and their respective
> companies, censorship groups have a
> powerful weapon, you put the free
> internet in jepordy, and we all lose on
> that point.

Valid point, but think about this too, the

internet censorship groups are comprised mostly of

religious people who are so very very afraid their

young impressionable kids get to see a naked

chick. Ofcourse, they're doing what they think is

right - however, wouldn't you say that kids under

16 need at least some sort of parental supervision

when surfing the 'net?

That's the real problem though - society (in the

US anyway that I can see) has turned into an 'easy

way out' society. What's easier - censoring or

educating. Censoring is easier, so let's go with

that.

*shrug* whether or not we're all losing, I doubt

it, as far as filtering software in libraries etc.

goes, I can deal with that. The minute they try to

shove another CDA through, I'll wig out.

(A new CDA won't work anyway, the Internet is a

global thing, not just a US thing.. something that

a lot of people tend to forget).

performance isn't king
I don't see how you can be interested in performance when you talk about CGI and Perl. Maybe you porn guys should use a high performance web application server, so that you can have more time working on content.

Re: do you actually expect pity?

>
> %
> % %
> % % % I'm glad it hurts your life to
> % be
> % % looked
> % % % down upon, that is what you
> get
> % % for
> % % % being associated with the
> worst
> % % spammers
> % % % on the internet, may your
> % children
> % % and
> % % % your childrens children suffer
> % the
> % % same
> % % % fate.
> % %
> % %
> % % Sadly you have a point, but I'm
> % not
> % % associated
> % % with those spammers out of free
> will
> % -
> % % more or
> % % less because they live in the
> same
> % % industry. I
> % % mentioned it before, but not all
> % porn
> % % sites spam
> % % :) I for one have never written
> % one
> % % bit of code
> % % that could be used to spam with.
> % The
> % % only thing
> % % that came close to it was a full
> % % double opt-in
> % % mailinglist (i.e. you enter your
> % email
> % % address,
> % % you get an email that asks you
> to
> % % confirm your
> % % subscription by clicking a link,
> % % etc.).
> %
> %
> %
> %
> % Well, that may or may not be the
> case
> % (that you don't spam), but theres
> still
> % one point because of porn sites you
> have
> % created the perfect argument for
> % internet censorship groups, because
> of
> % people like you and their
> respective
> % companies, censorship groups have
> a
> % powerful weapon, you put the free
> % internet in jepordy, and we all lose
> on
> % that point.
>
>
> Valid point, but think about this too,
> the
> internet censorship groups are
> comprised mostly of
> religious people who are so very very
> afraid their
> young impressionable kids get to see a
> naked
> chick. Ofcourse, they're doing what
> they think is
> right - however, wouldn't you say that
> kids under
> 16 need at least some sort of parental
> supervision
> when surfing the 'net?
>
> That's the real problem though -
> society (in the
> US anyway that I can see) has turned
> into an 'easy
> way out' society. What's easier -
> censoring or
> educating. Censoring is easier, so
> let's go with
> that.
>
> *shrug* whether or not we're all
> losing, I doubt
> it, as far as filtering software in
> libraries etc.
> goes, I can deal with that. The minute
> they try to
> shove another CDA through, I'll wig
> out.
>
> (A new CDA won't work anyway, the
> Internet is a
> global thing, not just a US thing..
> something that
> a lot of people tend to forget).

How disappointing, I thought this was supposed to spark intelligent conversation, not brow-beating the US..tsk tsk tsk....This is not about the US, it seems you and that other chap have issues with the US, lets not forget while the web is not USA only anymore, it once was, after all, the net started here in the USA...no? Or is it that throwing stones at the US is really what this is all about?

Re: Laboring under a misconception

> You are wrong when you say
> "performance is king".
> Suppose you had worked for a child
> pornography site, which featured images
> of rape and abuse. Sounds horrible,
> doesn't it? Would I want you on my
> programming team even if you were the
> best coder in the world? I would rather
> work with someone who did not tolerate
> and perpetuate the spread of child
> pornography, and many reasonable people
> would agree. Even if you were to claim
> "I'm only in it for the
> programming", you would still be
> guilty by passive association. If you
> are just arguing that "normal"
> pornography is just more acceptable than
> child pornography and therefore you
> should accepted into mainstream
> programming society, then you are just
> imposing your own moral standards on
> others.

Child porn, images of rape and abuse are illegal in the U.S. Pictures of consenting adults engaged in sexual acts (or just without clothes) are not.

One is criminal, one is not.

Your entire argument is based off of a hypothetical situation -- a supposition.

Assuming that because someone is tolerant of "x" does not mean that if you take it to the extreme, they will still be tolerant.

Your same argument could be made for everyone who has a glass of wine with dinner --> drunk drivers. Or someone who takes an aspirin for a headache --> herion addict.

The original author is no more imposing his moral view on others than you are on him (or others).

Re: Amazing

> The interesting part to this discussion
> is that no one realizes the changes in
> technology that porn has given the
> world.
>
> Video tape has been used since the
> late 40's but was far to expensive to be
> used as a consumer product. It took the
> porn industry trying to reduce the costs
> of 8mm and 16mm film to push video tapes
> and the vcr into the world of mass
> consumerism. The "major
> studios" only got on board once the
> porn industry had pretty much guaranteed
> a vcr in every house.
>
> Video cds, DVD (less so than others)
> and most of the on-line credit card
> stuff has been driven by the porn
> industry needing these things.
>
> Realistically speaking, based on this
> article, Hollywood movies, network
> television, the US has truly become the
> world's biggest socialist country. Land
> of the free? Yeah right.
>
> Patrick
> Happy to live in Canada, the Great
> White North

Are you saying that porn was responsible for VCRs and like technology?, that has to be one of the most ignorant things I have seen posted here. Yet another person who has nothing better to do but make themselves feel superior by insulting an entire

country...if canadians are all like you, I am happy to be American.

Re: do you actually expect pity?

> How disappointing, I thought this was
> supposed to spark intelligent
> conversation, not brow-beating the
> US..tsk tsk tsk....This is not about the
> US, it seems you and that other chap
> have issues with the US, lets not forget
> while the web is not USA only anymore,
> it once was, after all, the net started
> here in the USA...no? Or is it that
> throwing stones at the US is really what
> this is all about?

No, it's not about throwing stones at the US -

it's just a good old dose of reality,

the predominant mentality in the US is what

prompted me to write the article. Whether

that means I'm biased, maybe, don't forget I'm

Dutch - I might be used to another culture

altogether :)

It is however true that the US still considers the

Internet to be an american thing. Yes,

it did start in the US - it doesn't mean the US

can control it :) The Internet is global, hence

beyond controlling or law-making.

I would've reacted the same if Holland would've

suggested that the Internet should only

be available in Dutch.

Re: performance isn't king

> I don't see how you can be interested in
> performance when you talk about CGI and
> Perl. Maybe you porn guys should use a
> high performance web application server,
> so that you can have more time working
> on content.

I talk about Perl and CGI because that's easier to

explain than a mod_perl setup.

I can safely say that mod_perl with well-written

perl code is as fast, if not faster, than a high

performance web application server, for a fraction

of the cost. :)

Re: Various things....

> feel free to hate me, I dont't care :)
> Just try to see it from my point of view before
> you condemn me - that's after all, the
> respectable 'human' thing to do :)

But we don't hate you, does that makes you feel

any better? Your point of view is that you are a

good coder, so people should find you interesting.

Further, you think you're even more interesting

because you're a porn coder. You're such a geek!

Re: Various things....
so why is www.seekingsin.com a 'dead end? what do your log files look like?

> Okay, I feel the need again to slap
> another
> comment on here.
>
> For those of you who say that I should
> stop my
> whining; Actually I'm not whining -
> I'm perfectly
> okay with people shunning me or not
> liking me
> because of what I do for a living. The
> article
> merely focuses on the point that
> 'porn' directly
> equates to 'go away, you sinner' (in a
> really
> generalised way that is).
>
> For those of you who said that I'm
> showing my age;
> maybe I am, but think about this - the
> average age
> of coders in the porn world is between
> 21 and 25.
> Some of the biggest porn peddling
> companies are
> run by 23 year olds. Some 18 year olds
> drive 2001
> Chevvy Corvette's around the block
> because they
> made damn fine money off of peddling
> porn.
>
> So maybe I'm showing my age, but maybe
> it's just
> the fact that the porn industry is in
> general
> comprised of younger people - so you
> immediately
> have the added bonus of something like
> a
> 'generation gap' to also deal with.
>
> Please note however, that I am in no
> way implying
> that everyone should like me - heck, I
> said it in
> the article, feel free to hate me, I
> dont't care
> :) Just try to see it from my point of
> view before
> you condemn me - that's after all, the
> respectable
> 'human' thing to do :)
>

Re: do you actually expect pity?

>
> % How disappointing, I thought this
> was
> % supposed to spark intelligent
> % conversation, not brow-beating the
> % US..tsk tsk tsk....This is not about
> the
> % US, it seems you and that other
> chap
> % have issues with the US, lets not
> forget
> % while the web is not USA only
> anymore,
> % it once was, after all, the net
> started
> % here in the USA...no? Or is it
> that
> % throwing stones at the US is really
> what
> % this is all about?
>
>
> No, it's not about throwing stones at
> the US -
> it's just a good old dose of
> reality,
> the predominant mentality in the US is
> what
> prompted me to write the article.
> Whether
> that means I'm biased, maybe, don't
> forget I'm
> Dutch - I might be used to another
> culture
> altogether :)
>
> It is however true that the US still
> considers the
> Internet to be an american thing.
> Yes,
> it did start in the US - it doesn't
> mean the US
> can control it :) The Internet is
> global, hence
> beyond controlling or law-making.
>
> I would've reacted the same if Holland
> would've
> suggested that the Internet should
> only
> be available in Dutch.
>

Well if censorship is your beef, and the US does/should not control the internet, then why is it whenever the word censorship comes up the USA comes with it?...Japan won't even allow pubic hair to be shown in porn pics, legal or not, yet noone ever craps on them, why? Simple, the world has this idea of the US in their mind(and yes some of it is true, but no country is perfect) and it blinds them to the big picture, it is sad to see such closed-mindedness from ones who claim to be open minded, and yet, never see it, how very very sad.

Re: Laboring under a misconception

%
> Child porn, images of rape and abuse
> are illegal in the U.S. Pictures of
> consenting adults engaged in sexual acts
> (or just without clothes) are not.
>
> One is criminal, one is not.
>
> Your entire argument is based off of a
> hypothetical situation -- a
> supposition.

Legality is not an issue - it could be something completely legal, yet completely distasteful. I only mention child pornography because it is an obivous example that highlights the ability to draw a moral line. For some people, the line is before pornography, for some it is somewhere in the middle, for some it is after child pornography

> The original author is no more

> imposing his moral view on others than

> you are on him (or others).

I'm not taking any view on the stance of pornography, but I am saying that people have a right to not associate with people who they think are immoral.

Re: Various things....

> so why is www.seekingsin.com a 'dead
> end? what do your log files look like?

Because seekingsin.com is still under development

:) And it's not my only site,

I have a lot more sites (I currently own 40

domains). The fact that it's my 'personal'

stuff also means that I only work on it when I

have time, or when I feel like it.

Most of the time I spend working on code for other

people :)

Alternative view(s)...
Please try saying these out loud and see if they work correctly...

"My work improves an ultra-rightwing conservative site."

"My work supports a white supremacy site."

"My work improves the functionality of a leftwing radical site."

"My work speeds the spread of harmful information like drug recipes and bomb instructions."

"My work promotes the subjugation or degradation of another human being."

Regards...

Re: do you actually expect pity?

> % No, it's not about throwing stones
> at
> % the US -
> % it's just a good old dose of
> % reality,
> % the predominant mentality in the US
> is
> % what
> % prompted me to write the article.
> % Whether
> % that means I'm biased, maybe,
> don't
> % forget I'm
> % Dutch - I might be used to another
> % culture
> % altogether :)
> %
> % It is however true that the US
> still
> % considers the
> % Internet to be an american thing.
> % Yes,
> % it did start in the US - it
> doesn't
> % mean the US
> % can control it :) The Internet is
> % global, hence
> % beyond controlling or law-making.
> %
> % I would've reacted the same if
> Holland
> % would've
> % suggested that the Internet should
> % only
> % be available in Dutch.
> %
>
>
> Well if censorship is your beef, and
> the US does/should not control the
> internet, then why is it whenever the
> word censorship comes up the USA comes
> with it?...Japan won't even allow pubic
> hair to be shown in porn pics, legal or
> not, yet noone ever craps on them, why?
> Simple, the world has this idea of the
> US in their mind(and yes some of it is
> true, but no country is perfect) and it
> blinds them to the big picture, it is
> sad to see such closed-mindedness from
> ones who claim to be open minded, and
> yet, never see it, how very very sad.

Your point rattles a bit kind Sir :)

See, I know it's illegal to show pubic hair in

porn pics in Japan, however, Japan hasn't tried to

put legislation in place that would make it

illegal for a person living in Japan to view porn

pics _with_ pubic hair. They haven't tried to

shove legislation through that would make it

illegal for pubic hair to be shown in porn pics

that are on servers not residing in Japan. The US

did try that with the CDA, albeit there it wasn't

as much the pubic hair as much as the whole porn

thing.

The point is that the US is the biggest country in

the world when it comes to political influence and

a known history of throwing it's political weight

around :)

Ofcourse, like I said before, I might be biased.

I'm Dutch, and in part I'm still used to the Dutch

way of things (i.e. nobody gives a shit about

porn). So maybe instead of being

closed-minded I just see things from a different

cultural perspective, which doesn't necessarily

mean I'm closed-minded.

Seeing as how we're probably going to disagree on

this, all I can say is that I try to be as

open-minded as I can be, but try and remember that

not everyone sees things from the same point of

view :)

(Other than that, you did have a valid point ;)

Re: Alternative view(s)...

> Please try saying these out loud and see
> if they work correctly...
>
> "My work improves an
> ultra-rightwing conservative
> site."
>
> "My work supports a white
> supremacy site."
>
> "My work improves the
> functionality of a leftwing radical
> site."
>
> "My work speeds the spread of
> harmful information like drug recipes
> and bomb instructions."
>
> "My work promotes the subjugation
> or degradation of another human
> being."
>
> Regards...

Hmm, valid point but most of your alternate

viewpoints rotate around a racial preference :)

Porn doesn't do racism ;) As far as drug and bomb

instructions - they kill - porn does not. The

subjugation/degradation of another human being -

maybe, but everyone you see in those nifty porn

pics has chosen to be in them out of their own

free will, and if they happen to get off on being

degraded that's their personal choice (although I

for one don't see what could be interesting about

that).

Re: do you actually expect pity?

>
> % % No, it's not about throwing
> stones
> % at
> % % the US -
> % % it's just a good old dose of
> % % reality,
> % % the predominant mentality in the
> US
> % is
> % % what
> % % prompted me to write the
> article.
> % % Whether
> % % that means I'm biased, maybe,
> % don't
> % % forget I'm
> % % Dutch - I might be used to
> another
> % % culture
> % % altogether :)
> % %
> % % It is however true that the US
> % still
> % % considers the
> % % Internet to be an american
> thing.
> % % Yes,
> % % it did start in the US - it
> % doesn't
> % % mean the US
> % % can control it :) The Internet
> is
> % % global, hence
> % % beyond controlling or law-making.
>
> % %
> % % I would've reacted the same if
> % Holland
> % % would've
> % % suggested that the Internet
> should
> % % only
> % % be available in Dutch.
> % %
> %
> %
> % Well if censorship is your beef,
> and
> % the US does/should not control the
> % internet, then why is it whenever
> the
> % word censorship comes up the USA
> comes
> % with it?...Japan won't even allow
> pubic
> % hair to be shown in porn pics, legal
> or
> % not, yet noone ever craps on them,
> why?
> % Simple, the world has this idea of
> the
> % US in their mind(and yes some of it
> is
> % true, but no country is perfect) and
> it
> % blinds them to the big picture, it
> is
> % sad to see such closed-mindedness
> from
> % ones who claim to be open minded,
> and
> % yet, never see it, how very very
> sad.
>
>
> Your point rattles a bit kind Sir :)
>
> See, I know it's illegal to show pubic
> hair in
> porn pics in Japan, however, Japan
> hasn't tried to
> put legislation in place that would
> make it
> illegal for a person living in Japan
> to view porn
> pics _with_ pubic hair. They haven't
> tried to
> shove legislation through that would
> make it
> illegal for pubic hair to be shown in
> porn pics
> that are on servers not residing in
> Japan. The US
> did try that with the CDA, albeit
> there it wasn't
> as much the pubic hair as much as the
> whole porn
> thing.
>
> The point is that the US is the
> biggest country in
> the world when it comes to political
> influence and
> a known history of throwing it's
> political weight
> around :)
>
> Ofcourse, like I said before, I might
> be biased.
> I'm Dutch, and in part I'm still used
> to the Dutch
> way of things (i.e. nobody gives a
> shit about
> porn). So maybe instead of being
> closed-minded I just see things from a
> different
> cultural perspective, which doesn't
> necessarily
> mean I'm closed-minded.
>
> Seeing as how we're probably going to
> disagree on
> this, all I can say is that I try to
> be as
> open-minded as I can be, but try and
> remember that
> not everyone sees things from the same
> point of
> view :)
>
> (Other than that, you did have a valid
> point ;)
>

Well of course we have problems it comes from the nature of the USA, our diversity, diversity comes with many more opportunities for problems to present themselves, sometimes to make the majority happy, you have to make someone unhappy, since we have the biggest diversity in the world, we also have the most problems, while this can be a bad thing (i.e. attempted world-wide censorship, which really is not an issue if what you say is correct since if your country(or any other) does not want to censor,they won't and only US citizens will be censored, if your country turns out and aggrees with US policy, then perhaps your country is not so different from ours?) it also make good things happen.

Re: Various things....

>
> % so why is www.seekingsin.com a
> 'dead
> % end? what do your log files look
> like?
>
>
> Because seekingsin.com is still under
> development
> :) And it's not my only site,
> I have a lot more sites (I currently
> own 40
> domains). The fact that it's my
> 'personal'
> stuff also means that I only work on
> it when I
> have time, or when I feel like it.
> Most of the time I spend working on
> code for other
> people :)
>
>
>
>

Cool, just wanna see what ya got goin' on (besides the dbi stuff here on freshmeat)

Re: do you actually expect pity?
When one makes a decision in life to have some
sort of life work there are many pros and cons to
consider. Enjoyment of the work, financiall
rewards. prestige, feeling that your work is
meaningful to yourself and the community etc.. Way
back in the good old days (the mid 60's) it was
fashionable not to work for industries that were
perceived as damaging to the human race, i.e. the
defense companies and their associated industries.
Many very bright people truly wanted to separate
themselves from any association with routine
potentially "polluting jobs" and went on their way
to making crafts etc..
Life is a series of choices and working in the
porn industry is clearly a choice that you have made.
You have done this presumably due to the financial
rewards and to a lesser degree the professional
challenges. You have to accept the problems with
your choice.
The issue is not whether pornography is good or
bad. The issue is how most Americans view
pornography. Whether it is a religious, ethical,
moral, or whatever is the motivation if people
don't like pornography they will not like
pornographers or those who work for them.
You can not expect much more. It has nothing to
do with coding or what work you do.
It has to do with the source of your money.
Enjoy the money but do not expect to be respected
or loved by the majority of people.

The Real Reason
Anyone who'd look down on a fellow perl programmer, just 'cause he works for an adult site has some mental problems.

I think working for a porn site would kick ass. It sure beats the hell out of any other programming I can think of. (Yes, perhaps even professional game programing.)

Clearly the ppl who look down on porn programmers are really jealous. They can't get a job like that, which makes them green (and other colors) with envy.

Re: Amazing

>
> % The interesting part to this
> discussion
> % is that no one realizes the changes
> in
> % technology that porn has given the
> % world.
> %
> % Video tape has been used since the
> % late 40's but was far to expensive
> to be
> % used as a consumer product. It took
> the
> % porn industry trying to reduce the
> costs
> % of 8mm and 16mm film to push video
> tapes
> % and the vcr into the world of mass
> % consumerism.
%
> Are you saying that porn was
> responsible for VCRs and like
> technology?, that has to be one of the
> most ignorant things I have seen posted
> here. Yet another person who has nothing
> better to do but make themselves feel
> superior by insulting an entire
> country...if canadians are all like
> you, I am happy to be American.

I'm not sure if the last post is a troll or not.

Based on my information, the original poster is

right - the porn industry has lead to consumer

acceptance of new technologies such as VCRs, 1-900

numbers, and e-commerce. This is from a story in

the Economist - sorry I don't have the issue

number, but you can search their website

(www.economist.com) if you're interested. Please

don't be so quick to call other people ignorant -

unless you do actually have evidence to the

contrary. If you do, I'd be interested in reading

it - please send me an email (and you may want to

contact the Economist about printing a correction

for their story - they are usually quite good

about that).

SinSeeker: Put up or SHUT UP!

"I'm a porn coder, and I'm damn proud of it."

Then show us the sites you are so happy to
work for. What is your real name?

Re: The Real Reason

> Anyone who'd look down on a fellow perl
> programmer, just 'cause he works for an
> adult site has some mental problems.
>

Awww "fellow Perl coders". I get all teary
eyed just hearing that.

Larry Wall is a big-time Jesus freak and
looks down on the porn industry.

Re: Amazing

>
> %
> % % The interesting part to this
> % discussion
> % % is that no one realizes the
> changes
> % in
> % % technology that porn has given
> the
> % % world.
> % %
> % % Video tape has been used since
> the
> % % late 40's but was far to
> expensive
> % to be
> % % used as a consumer product. It
> took
> % the
> % % porn industry trying to reduce
> the
> % costs
> % % of 8mm and 16mm film to push
> video
> % tapes
> % % and the vcr into the world of
> mass
> % % consumerism.
> %
> % Are you saying that porn was
> % responsible for VCRs and like
> % technology?, that has to be one of
> the
> % most ignorant things I have seen
> posted
> % here. Yet another person who has
> nothing
> % better to do but make themselves
> feel
> % superior by insulting an entire
> % country...if canadians are all
> like
> % you, I am happy to be American.
>
>
> I'm not sure if the last post is a
> troll or not.
> Based on my information, the original
> poster is
> right - the porn industry has lead to
> consumer
> acceptance of new technologies such as
> VCRs, 1-900
> numbers, and e-commerce. This is from
> a story in
> the Economist - sorry I don't have the
> issue
> number, but you can search their
> website
> (www.economist.com) if you're
> interested. Please
> don't be so quick to call other people
> ignorant -
> unless you do actually have evidence
> to the
> contrary. If you do, I'd be
> interested in reading
> it - please send me an email (and you
> may want to
> contact the Economist about printing a
> correction
> for their story - they are usually
> quite good
> about that).
>
>
>

I never called the person ignorant, the statement is what is ignorant, don't put words into my mouth, if you cannot find a valid point to argue on, don't try and create one. Porn was only a SMALL (VERY small) player in the VCR/vid industry, lets not forget there is such a thing as non-porn movies beleive it or not.

Re: Laboring under a misconception

>
> %
> % Child porn, images of rape and
> abuse
> % are illegal in the U.S. Pictures
> of
> % consenting adults engaged in sexual
> acts
> % (or just without clothes) are not.
> %
> % One is criminal, one is not.
> %
> % Your entire argument is based off of
> a
> % hypothetical situation -- a
> % supposition.
>
>
> Legality is not an issue - it could be
> something completely legal, yet
> completely distasteful. I only mention
> child pornography because it is an
> obivous example that highlights the
> ability to draw a moral line. For some
> people, the line is before pornography,
> for some it is somewhere in the middle,
> for some it is after child pornography
>
>
> % The original author is no more
> % imposing his moral view on others
> than
> % you are on him (or others).
>
>
> I'm not taking any view on the stance
> of pornography, but I am saying that
> people have a right to not associate
> with people who they think are immoral.
>

Okay, thanks for the clarification. Much better.

Re: The Real Reason

>
> % Anyone who'd look down on a fellow
> perl
> % programmer, just 'cause he works for
> an
> % adult site has some mental
> problems.
> %
>
>
> Awww "fellow Perl coders". I get all
> teary
> eyed just hearing that.
>
> Larry Wall is a big-time Jesus freak
> and
> looks down on the porn industry.
>
>

*snicker* I'd say about 80% of all porn sites are

more or less powered by Perl. The remaining 20% is

coldfusion or ASP. Somehow I find a great deal of

humor in this fact :)

*boggle*
All hail people who still beleive in optimization in this crazy world of mega-gigahertz machines with gigabytes even terabytes of RAM and drive space.

(on this note, can anyone tell me the least expensive way to evaluate including a file into an HTML file? SSI, PHP, JavaScript, etc? I want to make my website fast, but I'm currently depending on code that takes some time to process includes and so on within)

Back in the DAY, when I learned to code, it was a C= 64, and you optimized the HELL out of every piece of code you had, since we were working with BBS software that -barely- fit within the 64Kb that the computer had to work with. Each module to the BBS had to fit within I think it was 22K, code, data, all of it. And if you couldn't do that, you had to make multiple modules, which with the I/O time on these computers, made an absolutely awful impression on your users, as you had to load anotehr 22K or so off of the slowest floppy disk ever seen by mankind.

I've done a bit of C coding, even did some Kernel hacking back in the Linux 0.98 days.. always concentrating on the fastest, least amount of code, yet most readable/comprehendable version, also. Sacrifice only a very very miniscule amount of performance for clarity. (You must -always- have clarity.. any web-based code that comes rolled up into three text lines of 254 characters each should be shot)

Now, I'm doing web coding ( http://blackmagik.dynup.net ). Learning a lot about new languages, new concepts (PHP, mSQL, porting things from one platform or program suite to another, even learning HTML, as I really don't know any of it's complexities yet.. actually i'm wondering if HTML raelly -has- any complexities.. it seems way too simple .. oh, JavaScript seems fun too).. and here I am working with a web-server that runs on a P2/450, with 32MB ram. And dammit, I'm going to turn out an amazing website that will take a lot of abuse on this P2/450 with 32MB ram, running not only as my webserver, but as my fileserver for my LAN, my email server, my internet router for a 6-machine LAN, and maybe even a Q3:A server, too. And "whatever-supreme-being-you-choose-to-believe" bless it, it's going to be fast, it's going to be efficient, and it's going to kick arse.

Hail to the optimizers. Keep your costs down, and your bottom lines high! Optimize your code like never before. Fine-tuned code just happens to also be a lot more easily maintained, and is a lot more portable. (never ever sacrifice a machine or browser specific performance trick for something you can do cross-platform. You never know when your target platform will change! At least, not unless it can be easily changed to another platform with a quick sed script [ie, half of the conversions from mySQL database servers to mSQL db servers can probably be done with a quick sed script .. oh, and btw, mSQL's performance in a lot of areas seems to outdo mySQL too :) ] ) jesus, I don't think I've ever written such a long paragraph within parenthesis and brackets. lol

->XO http://blackmagik.dynup.net/

PS, it doesn't matter what you code for. Hell, I know a fair chunk of porn site owners/operators/webmasters, not as say best of friends, but certainly as acquaintances. And that reminds me, I should probably consult them about my various problems while learning all these wonderful new codes and platforms.

Re: SinSeeker: Put up or SHUT UP!

>
> "I'm a porn coder, and I'm damn proud
> of it."
>
> Then show us the sites you are so
> happy to
> work for. What is your real name?
>
>
>

Proud yes, totally stupid, no :) I won't give you

my real name, since there are still some people

out there that don't know what I do for a living.

I'd like to keep it that way ;)

As for the sites I've worked on; here's a couple

http://daily-lesbian.com/

http://daily-oral.com/

http://daily-pee.com/

http://daily-toys.com/

http://search-adult.com/

http://big-penis.com (actually more

http://webmasters.big-penis.com - the entire

partnership software is mine);

http://www.sexual-linkage.com/

http://www.hotnnasty.com/

All other projects I've worked on are more or less

'backend' projects, and for those I can't actually

discuss any details in public :( damn NDA's are a

pain in the ass.

Re: Amazing

>
> %
> % %
> % % % The interesting part to this
> % % discussion
> % % % is that no one realizes the
> % changes
> % % in
> % % % technology that porn has given
> % the
> % % % world.
> % % %
> % % % Video tape has been used since
> % the
> % % % late 40's but was far to
> % expensive
> % % to be
> % % % used as a consumer product. It
> % took
> % % the
> % % % porn industry trying to reduce
> % the
> % % costs
> % % % of 8mm and 16mm film to push
> % video
> % % tapes
> % % % and the vcr into the world of
> % mass
> % % % consumerism.
> % %
> % % Are you saying that porn was
> % % responsible for VCRs and like
> % % technology?, that has to be one
> of
> % the
> % % most ignorant things I have seen
> % posted
> % % here. Yet another person who has
> % nothing
> % % better to do but make themselves
> % feel
> % % superior by insulting an entire
> % % country...if canadians are all
> % like
> % % you, I am happy to be American.
> %
> %
> % I'm not sure if the last post is a
> % troll or not.
> % Based on my information, the
> original
> % poster is
> % right - the porn industry has lead
> to
> % consumer
> % acceptance of new technologies such
> as
> % VCRs, 1-900
> % numbers, and e-commerce. This is
> from
> % a story in
> % the Economist - sorry I don't have
> the
> % issue
> % number, but you can search their
> % website
> % (www.economist.com) if you're
> % interested. Please
> % don't be so quick to call other
> people
> % ignorant -
> % unless you do actually have
> evidence
> % to the
> % contrary. If you do, I'd be
> % interested in reading
> % it - please send me an email (and
> you
> % may want to
> % contact the Economist about printing
> a
> % correction
> % for their story - they are usually
> % quite good
> % about that).
> %
> %
> %
>
>
> I never called the person ignorant,
> the statement is what is ignorant, don't
> put words into my mouth, if you cannot
> find a valid point to argue on, don't
> try and create one. Porn was only a
> SMALL (VERY small) player in the VCR/vid
> industry, lets not forget there is such
> a thing as non-porn movies beleive it or
> not.

Yes, there are such things as non-porn movies. And when the consumer VCR was first introduced, it was $1000 and the movies were $100.

Wanting to watch porn at home WAS one of the MAJOR drivers in bringing the VCR cost down. It was one of the main reason people spent the big $$ on VCRs back in the early 80s. The increase in volume helped bring the price down. It also shined the light for Hollywood in that they can make lots of $$ by selling movies for $19.95.

Check your history -- porn videos were a major force in the acceptance and cost reduction of the VCR and consumer video tape.

Also check the numbers on sales ratiors. Before cheap PPV, a place like 20,000 Movies has 90% normal videos and 10% porn videos -- but the profits are more like 40% from the porn.

You may not like it, but a lot of people do. If they didn't, all those places couldn't afford to stay in business.

Re: Amazing

>
> %
> % %
> % % %
> % % % % The interesting part to this
> % % % discussion
> % % % % is that no one realizes the
> % % changes
> % % % in
> % % % % technology that porn has
> given
> % % the
> % % % % world.
> % % % %
> % % % % Video tape has been used
> since
> % % the
> % % % % late 40's but was far to
> % % expensive
> % % % to be
> % % % % used as a consumer product.
> It
> % % took
> % % % the
> % % % % porn industry trying to
> reduce
> % % the
> % % % costs
> % % % % of 8mm and 16mm film to push
> % % video
> % % % tapes
> % % % % and the vcr into the world
> of
> % % mass
> % % % % consumerism.
> % % %
> % % % Are you saying that porn was
> % % % responsible for VCRs and like
> % % % technology?, that has to be
> one
> % of
> % % the
> % % % most ignorant things I have
> seen
> % % posted
> % % % here. Yet another person who
> has
> % % nothing
> % % % better to do but make
> themselves
> % % feel
> % % % superior by insulting an
> entire
> % % % country...if canadians are all
> % % like
> % % % you, I am happy to be
> American.
> % %
> % %
> % % I'm not sure if the last post is
> a
> % % troll or not.
> % % Based on my information, the
> % original
> % % poster is
> % % right - the porn industry has
> lead
> % to
> % % consumer
> % % acceptance of new technologies
> such
> % as
> % % VCRs, 1-900
> % % numbers, and e-commerce. This
> is
> % from
> % % a story in
> % % the Economist - sorry I don't
> have
> % the
> % % issue
> % % number, but you can search their
> % % website
> % % (www.economist.com) if you're
> % % interested. Please
> % % don't be so quick to call other
> % people
> % % ignorant -
> % % unless you do actually have
> % evidence
> % % to the
> % % contrary. If you do, I'd be
> % % interested in reading
> % % it - please send me an email
> (and
> % you
> % % may want to
> % % contact the Economist about
> printing
> % a
> % % correction
> % % for their story - they are
> usually
> % % quite good
> % % about that).
> % %
> % %
> % %
> %
> %
> % I never called the person
> ignorant,
> % the statement is what is ignorant,
> don't
> % put words into my mouth, if you
> cannot
> % find a valid point to argue on,
> don't
> % try and create one. Porn was only
> a
> % SMALL (VERY small) player in the
> VCR/vid
> % industry, lets not forget there is
> such
> % a thing as non-porn movies beleive
> it or
> % not.
>
>
>
> Yes, there are such things as non-porn
> movies. And when the consumer VCR was
> first introduced, it was $1000 and the
> movies were $100.
>
> Wanting to watch porn at home WAS one
> of the MAJOR drivers in bringing the VCR
> cost down. It was one of the main
> reason people spent the big $$ on VCRs
> back in the early 80s. The increase in
> volume helped bring the price down. It
> also shined the light for Hollywood in
> that they can make lots of $$ by selling
> movies for $19.95.
>
> Check your history -- porn videos were
> a major force in the acceptance and cost
> reduction of the VCR and consumer video
> tape.
>
> Also check the numbers on sales
> ratiors. Before cheap PPV, a place like
> 20,000 Movies has 90% normal videos and
> 10% porn videos -- but the profits are
> more like 40% from the porn.
>
> You may not like it, but a lot of
> people do. If they didn't, all those
> places couldn't afford to stay in
> business.

By that logic you could also say that porn was responsible for the death of BETA technology (anyone remember that?) which was superior in every way to the VHS format we are so used to, do you _really_ think if porn had not made a move someone else wouldn't have, of couse some other industry would have, perhaps BETA would have been the winner which would have been BETTER then the VCRs of today. (And the point of beta being more expensive is mute since as with everything it would have gotten cheaper). Cheers :)

Re: Conformity

> One problem I see is that a sizable
> number of Americans want to force others
> to conform to their religious views.
> Note that I didn't say moral views.
> Morality varies widely between
> religions. Some groups forbid the
> consumption of alcohol and/or gambling.
> Others are much less concerned with
> these practices but are more concerned
> with issues like contraception and
> abortion.
>
> I am a firm believer in freedom of
> religion. I think that people should be
> able to practice their faith unmolested.
> Further, I believe that people should
> be free to join and leave religious
> groups without harassment.
>
> I am a highly moral and ethical
> person, probably more so than many
> people who profess to be religious. But
> I don't believe in God and I refuse to
> conform to many religious sects'
> beliefs.
>
> The point of all of this is that I
> think people should be free to define
> acceptable standards for their own sect
> but that people outside a sect should be
> free to define their own standards
> within the boundaries of the law.
> Further, laws which encode religious
> beliefs, like anti-abortion or anti-porn
> laws, instead of morality, like laws
> against murder, should be eliminated. I
> call this "freedom of nonreligion."
>
> To conclude, people shouldn't apply
> their religious standards to others. If
> someone's coding for a porn site and
> your religion is against pornography but
> their religion or lack of religion has
> nothing to say about such things, you
> should treat that person no different
> than a conforming member of your own
> sect.

It sounds to me as though you're trying to force your religious views upon me by insisting that laws define what is moral and what is immoral. You hold then that the lawmakers hold the power to define good and evil? If the lawmakers decide that what you believe is wrong, will you then hold that they are correct?

Perhaps you're trying to force the view on me that "all things are permissable that harm no one else." How is your religious view about what harms other people better from mine? If I think that we are not at all corporeal beings, and that murder, therefore, is not harmful, then you are forcing your religious view that we are corporeal upon me by asserting that it is.

In short, all ethical stances are personal beliefs taken on faith - which pretty much completely defines a religious view. There is no sane way you can judge me without forcing a religious view on me, and there is no sane way you can decide what is judgable other than by a religious view.

Know then, that you force upon me the viewpoint that pornography is an acceptable practice by accepting it as valid. This is better than forcing the reverse?

Justify yourself as you see fit, but know that all things, just or unjust may be justified by the mind.

Re: Amazing

>
> By that logic you could also say that
> porn was responsible for the death of
> BETA technology (anyone remember that?)
> which was superior in every way to the
> VHS format we are so used to, do you
> _really_ think if porn had not made a
> move someone else wouldn't have, of
> couse some other industry would have,
> perhaps BETA would have been the winner
> which would have been BETTER then the
> VCRs of today. (And the point of beta
> being more expensive is mute since as
> with everything it would have gotten
> cheaper). Cheers :)

Hi,

You're almost at the point of Enlightenment, but

not quite. First off, it seems like you're closer

to accepting the historical fact that the porn

industry was, in part, responsible for the VCR's

adoption (BTW did you do the search on the

economist? It turns out some of the articles are

free to see, but unfortunately, the most relevant

ones don't turn up - search for "pornography" and

"innovation" or "technology" - you'll have to hunt

a bit).

So, if we play "what if", it might be true that

someone else (indy films? Richard Simmons fat-loss

tapes?) might have made the "killer app" for the

VCR. But, it turns out, it was the porn industry

- on BOTH VHS *and* Beta. Likewise, the porn

industry was one of the first to adopt e-commerce,

etc etc.

Now, bringing up Beta is a bit of a red herring.

One of the reasons Beta was more expensive than VHS

is that Sony was charging high royalty fees - Beta

was proprietary while VHS was an open standard.

In other words, Beta lost to VHS for the same

reason the Mac lost to PC's and why Windows 2000

Server is losing to Linux/BSD and Apache: people

had less control over the propretary standards.

Now also - the details are a bit sketchy, so I

won't dwell on it - but VHS did have some

technical advantages over Beta - it wasn't quite

so clear-cut (don't remember where I saw this - I

think it was an article on "path dependence" - it

might turn up if you do a google search).

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> % porn helps the global economy
> grow.
> % Nothing wrong with that.
>
>
> That's very unfortunate. Economy
> should be driven
> by something else than porn, wars and
> drugs. I
> just can't agree with this very
> fascist view of
> what the economy should be. That's too
> depressing.
>
>

True it IS depressing, depressing but true...(not that i object to porn...just object to stumbling on it when i'm not looking for it...its to distracting).

Anyway I've yet to see ANY economic model that doesn't derive its drive from one or more of those items because most people, AS A GROUP, like conflict (ie: war...look at the WWF, NFL, XFL, and until they went soft on ring fights the NHL, Desert Storm was the biggest ratings blowout of the 20th century); like to feel good (drugs..cigs, booze, sex, porn). Every one who "wins" at something thinks "I'm better than you are" even if too "good of a sport" to say so outloud....

How depressing...

Re: In case it hasn't been said.

%.....Of
> course,
> pr0n is still the thorn in the side of
> many banks
> offering merchant accounts (Look at
> some of the
> penalties handed down due to
> chargebacks! Yikes!)
> but we got it in there first...
>

Yikes?...that's an understatement ;)

I don't code at work...my coding is for SAG (ya know..[s**ts and giggles]?), anywho I'm a corporate bookkeeper so i get to deal with those chargeback penalties, and they suck! they "generously" give you a whole 2 days to get back to them and prove the charge was good in the first place! (like you can allways get a salesperson to find the documents rapidly..not!)

I've been on line for a long time (my first net accounts were on ARPA and MIL NETs on a green screen cybersystems mainframe [still had its punch card reader, tickertape reader, and teletype attached]) and the FIRST sites to offer CC clearing on the web with https WERE porn sites... so porn does sorta push the envelope on most technologies...bet the first programs for neural interface "games" [if direct neural connection ever comes] will be "first person" action porn!

Re: Interesting

> I don't buy that. Rape and violence
> towards women existed long before porn,
> and it was considered more societally
> acceptable before the advent of
> photographs or videos of naked women.
>
> I respect your right not to
> participate in porn, or to view it or to
> condone it. Some adults, however, don't
> share your feelings and choose to make
> money by letting people take photos of
> them naked...they have a right to do
> that, even if you do feel that it's
> morally wrong.
>
> I also note that you fixate on women
> in porn. Do you approve of men posing
> naked, or being objectified? I don't
> agree that women are automatically
> objectified by posing naked, that
> argument is a logical fallacy based more
> on emotion than facts.
>
> Frankly, if you want to stamp out
> something that objectifies and does harm
> to women, get rid of womens' magazines
> that tell women how skinny they need to
> be and how they need to wear makeup to
> "please their man" and TupperWear
> catalogs that only show smiling women
> proud to be happy homemakers displaying
> TupperWear like grinning idiots. If
> you're a feminist, porn is the least of
> your worries. Porn is usually viewed as
> sexual fantasy - most media portrays an
> image of women they're expected to live
> up to 24/7 that causes a huge number of
> women to suffer depression, bulemia,
> anorexia and dozens of other
> media-inflicted psychological disorders.
> Don't belive me? Go to one so-called
> "primative" culture, and you'll still
> find violence and rape - but I challenge
> you to find one case of anorexia or
> clinical depression.
>
> % So in that context I would say that
> it
> % is perfectly right to view
> pornography
> % as something "dirty" or
> % "immoral"...
>
> That's your choice. All I said was
> that I wouldn't shun someone because
> they write code for porn sites, and that
> I personally don't think that porn is
> that bad.
>
> % If you are happy writing CGI
> scripts
> % for porn companies then that's
> your
> % choice but you should stop whining
> about
> % not getting approval from all
> sides
> % because pornography is in fact not
> a
> % business like any other business.
>
> This really isn't a reply to my
> comment, it's a reply to the author - I
> don't write CGI, I'm not really a coder.
>
>
> I do agree that it's a problem that
> children can easily browse porn on the
> Internet. However, that's almost as much
> fault of the parents - if you have
> children, you need to be able to
> supervise them. I assure you, even young
> boys that don't have Internet
> connections will find some way to look
> at naked women when they start hitting
> puberty - even if it means going to the
> library and digging through the National
> Geographics in hopes of seeing a stray
> nipple. And this is not because they are
> seeking to objectify women, it's
> curiosity and raging hormones.
>
> Zonker
>

Amen...

There are just as many men being "objectified" in the porn biz as women..just "hit" any B/D, S/M, soft core, hard core porn site. and i find mags telling women to look like Calista Flockhart MUCH more disturbing than even a magazine like "Hustler" (Hustler will show "real" shaped women not twigs, and not always the "ideal" of the Texas Cheerleader either).

I'm with Zonker here..true feminists (women in touch w/ themselves and not "manhaters") need to concern themselves more with the media that portrays bodily distortions as "necessary and desireable or you'll never be lovable or happy" than with most porn. (Porn says "go out and get laid", Vogue says "worry about your ass size or you won't get laid"....which one is more damaging to a woman self esteem?)

---Mike Adams

I like porn
What's the big problem? People need to accept that porn will be around FOREVER and that yes, it employs some of us coders. Someone has to do it. Anyway, just wanted to put my two cents in. Oh yeah, I like porn, don't you? And if not, what's wrong with you?

WoW, this artical has had a lot of comments added for 1 day
I read this artical yesterday. and it had 1 comment.

I read it today and it had 106. this must be a

record breaker.

Sex is good for you. Porn is wonderful. Everyone relax and enjoy some ass.
I just read that sex increases your health,
happines and life span.
I love porn. I think its absolutly wonderful,
beautiful, and natural.
Nothing wrong with pushing nice juicy ass
over the information super highway.

peace, sex, and porn.

Synaptic.

Re: do you actually expect pity?

Just to (hopefully) put the end to this ping pong... or start another round :o)

the predominant mentality in the US is what prompted me to write the article.

I personally don't think it's US-specific. Europeans indeed better tolerate some things (like sex) but there're other things they would consider immoral while Americans wouldn't. Take war. Can't say anything about Denmark (or Holland) but I heard in Germany toy weapon generally considered an appropriate gift for a kid. Every society has its do's and dont's.

I believe it's not about predominance or diversity. It's about a quite visible split between what the society is and what it wants to be.

Take smoking. Having (probably; I'n not sure) the world's biggest tobacco industry, US seems to be a country where smoking is least weclomed than anywhere else. Go figure.

Take porn. Having (this time I'm sure) the wolrd's biggest porn industry, the society speaks of family values and stuff like that. That's what that perl coder is talking about. I'm sure that at least 90% of those he was talking to do visit adult sites BUT won't treat the one who's making them with enough respect. That's where the split is: they go to porn sites for "entertainment" (oh well... there are other words we better won't say) and he's merely writing code for $$. Who exactly must be ashamed?

Society (in mass) says: him. Go figure.

Therefore, it's not about code, or morality, or country. That's what people do always and everywhere: petting their lovely ideas about themselves instead of looking around with open eyes. People do this and countries do this (really, there's no difference). Take tobacco industry, adult entertainment, drugs consume, military funding... - you can easy find a corresponding "right" idea the society has about this. It just happened that in US this split is extremely big.

What can I say to the Dutch guy... Take things as they are 'cuz it's not the worst way. In China, for exapmle, you could easily be executed for what you're doing, and your relatives would pay for the bullet :o)) (To possible Chinese fellows here: I personally approve such practice. Not for porn, but for drugs - for sure.)

Re: Amazing

>
> By that logic you could also say that
> porn was responsible for the death of
> BETA technology (anyone remember that?)
> which was superior in every way to the
> VHS format we are so used to, do you
> _really_ think if porn had not made a
> move someone else wouldn't have, of
> couse some other industry would have,
> perhaps BETA would have been the winner
> which would have been BETTER then the
> VCRs of today. (And the point of beta
> being more expensive is mute since as
> with everything it would have gotten
> cheaper). Cheers :)

No, poor licensing killed Beta, even though it was superior (smaller tape, better quality).

At the time, the only way to see dirty movies was to go to a adult theater. The VCR allowed people to watch these movies in privacy -- avoiding nosy neighbors, public ridicule, bad parts of town, Pee Wee Hermans, etc.

Nobody minded being seen in public going to the Star Wars opening. Deep Throat was a different story. Simple as that.

Like it or not, it is a historical fact and not opinion.

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=232069

"Fifteen years ago the pornography business was one of the first to turn the videocassette recorder into a cash machine. Today it is doing the same for DVD and the Internet."

Re: Wouldn't happen in Europe

> The same goes for you, your the one
> who started this into a country war, the
> author stated he was NOT fromn the US
> yet you felt free to introduce your own
> prejudice, don't claim to be better when
> you flame other countires..take that
> stuff to /.

You could read between lines that it had to be US or some otherwards sexually uptight country, suchs as Saudi Arabia. And as you later notice, he mentions that he is living in the US, Case closed.

Re: Conformity
% You've got a great point. I recently
> got into a discussion at school about
> religion. One of my main points was on
> how christianity can be two faced in the
> fact that it says people will be forced
> to believe a lie. This comes from the
> prediction of judgement day. I stated
> that christians are alot like this in
> the sense that they tend to shun anyone
> who is not "christian" and will force
> their belief upon other people.
> Immediately I was asked if I had been
> baptised, my answer, no. The person that
> asked me continued to spew out nonsense
> from the bible. Someone eventually
> pointed out to her that I was basing my
> beliefs from things that I have seen go
> on in life and that she was doing
> exactly what I had been pointing out.
> She had been attempting to force her
> beliefs from a "book" upon me. She
> became rather upset and frustrated that
> she could not maintain a proper
> composure throughout the remainder of
> the discussion. The funny thing about
> this is that my class contains a variety
> of beliefs and religions on life.
> Christianity, the major belief in the
> United States, seems to be one of the
> few beliefs that shun away from man's
> natural tendancies. Porn is a good
> thing, it provides jobs and economic
> growth through the world. The coding
> used on porn sites also helps to
> increase the intensity of coding
> expectations through out the business
> world. Why should places such as IBM,
> Gateway, and etc. beforced to accept
> second best coding? Porn sites have been
> using databases for years and most
> likely code security as well. Bring it
> on, bring the light of real code and
> community work to the people and their
> daily lives. We need to stop allowing
> our peers to de-evolve into "apes" and
> teach them to use their brains again.

I think that it's important to note that by working for a company or organization we imply a degree of approval for the goals of that company. I come from the other side of the spectrum and this should lay out my predisposition. I'm a perl hacker for gospelcom.net. I work there because, among other things, I agree with the general premise of the organization and hope that I can contribute to that.

First, I think that it's important that there are people of varying degrees of intelligence in all walks of life. It is not terribly impressive for an intelligent atheist to outwit a stupid Christian or other theist. Likewise, with my bit of intellectual leverage I can debunk the logic of a simple atheist. Please don't assume that one persuasion has the intellectual high ground. I assure you that there have been great theist and atheist minds.

Second, I feel compelled to try to give you some insight into the evangelical zeal for telling others about one's faith. I presume that you have some friends with different interests. No, I'm not talking about religious differences at the moment. Let's take me for example. One of my roommates is a music major and I'm a KDE/Qt guy in a big way (We can save this debate for later.), and I was really excited when KDE 2.1 came out. I told my roommate about it. He really didn't care, but since we're friends he at least acknowledged my statements. Now let's say we're talking about something more important, say something that serves as an overarching theme to one's life. You can rest assured that it will come up often in discussion--even when those hearing about it don't care and think it's silly.

I too heard a lot of religious propaganda in my years before becoming a Christian. And I too enjoyed making Christians feel silly when I could pick apart their apologetic intentions. It blew my mind the first time a Christian made me feel silly and childish in my philosophical assumptions. There's at least a Christian or two that has their head on their shoulders out there. :-)

One last bit of religious nitpicking before I actually start talking about porn: Most of our beliefs come from books that we take on faith to be true. I have not personally verified that my text from a recent astrophysics course is true. I, however, accept that it is because reliable sources have indicated this to me(specifically Dr. Haarsma). I place faith in the reliability of that book.

OK--onto porn. I think porn is wrong. I think it is wrong to produce, distribute or to do much else with porn. Why? Well, obviously I have some issues with it that come from the morality that flows from my religious conviction. In addition to that I think pornography degrades women by encouraging men to think of them as sex objects. SeekingSin has displayed this some himself in his talking about the "fringe benefits." I couldn't work for such a place. I couldn't work somewhere that I felt was propagating the beliefs that I disagree with.

Do I and other Christians shun such people? Ideally no. However, like most people Christians are hypocrites sometimes. It's tough for us to get over really different ideas of morality than our own. However, this is not the "Christian" way of things. Mary Magdalene, who was probably the closest woman to Jesus, was a whore when she met him. Not to throw the Bible at you again, but if you are ever curious about what Christians believe about interacting with non-Christians, Luke (third book of the New Testament, about 40 pages) is mostly about Jesus and his interactions with people that weren't socially acceptable (often simply including non-Jews--Luke was the only non-Jewish writer in the Bible.).

I think Christians and non-Christians get confused on what it actually is that being a Christian means for social morality. I think it can be best summed up as this. We want others to accept Christian faith, not Christian morals. The morals come into play a step later.

Now one other weird thing. I get the same reaction that SeekingSin does. I've had that, "Oh, you're one of those." People couldn't pick me out in a crowd. I'm a long haired, slacker looking, standard fare geek, but once they know I'm a Christian, even worse, I work for an organization that puts Christian stuff online, they don't want to associate with me--after all, I probably want to corrupt their kids. I ask all of you a question who have zealously defended SeekingSin, how would you react to me?

"The conduct of God, who disposes all things kindly, is to put religion into the mind by reason, and into the heart by grace. But to will to put it into the mind and heart by force and threats is not to put religion there, but terror; terorrem potius quam religionem." - Blaise Pascal (after whom the Pascal language was named)

--Scott Wheeler

Re: A craftsman builds a gun - that itself - does not kill

> This is classic greed and big business without
regard to morals and ethics
> (lets not even bring religion into the picture,
just cause and effect).
> Daddy/Mommy goes to work and markets crap to the
world, often targeting
> children/teens and then hipocritically goes home
and says -No, you cannot do
> that! All this in the quest for more money.
> ... blah blah blah etc etc ....
> You sacrifice the well being of your own
children (not necessarily literally) -
> You come to terms with yourself. None of this is
the road to true happiness
> or peace of mind - just a thicker wallet and a
nice new SUV.

Money is (unfortunately) an important element in
the society we live in. If money weren't an issue
and the whole of humanity worked together to
ensure that all our needs were met and noone was
left for want, then having to sacrifice in order
to feed our families wouldn't take place.

Pr0n just happens to be the industry where, in
fact, the LEAST amount of sacrifice has to be
made. For example, I have two kids. I can afford
to live in a decent neighborhood, feed and clothe
them decently, and more importantly (because I
work from home 99% of the time) I can be there
when they need me. Whatever moral ambiguity that
may exist (which for me does not exist, because my
parents never drilled into me on a daily basis
that SEX IS EVIL, thank the gods!) by
working in
the adult industry dissolves in the face of those
powerful benefits. Lets break it down into a list,
shall we?

Pros (for me personally, YMMV):

o Work from home. No commute. No poisoning
the atmosphere with my Van fumes. No drycleaning
bills. This is worth the price of admission right
here.

o Plenty of time for family. We play lazer
tag every friday when the kids only have a half
day. We do homework together. We go see movies. We
generally pal around. We also clean the house...
most times as A UNIT. It pays to have boys old
enough to pick up after themselves now... and I'm
hoping the quality time we've spent together as a
family will help with the inevitable pubescent
conflicts.

o A respectable income which actually pays
what I'm worth, rather than what some money
grubbing employer thinks he can get away with
paying me.

o Uhhh... free porn (although this isn't a
real big plus to me, for some it's major ;)

o A peer group of generally open minded,
forward looking and forward thinking individuals
and groups.

o A challenging and rewarding carreer
experience in general

Cons:

o Some duplicity when dealing with these
matters with children. Personally, I've never
shied away from 'sex talk' with the kids, but I do
try to minimize exposure wherever possible and
schedule my work hours to keep them from being
prematurely... uh, matured. Any substantial
information about sex they'll get will either be
through me directly or through "alternate
channels". Anyone who's been on a playground at a
junior high school will know what I mean there =/.

o Some of the people are scumbags. Mind
you, prior to entering the adult industry, I met
scumbags. If I ever leave the industry, I'll
probably still have to deal with scumbags. It's a
sad fact of life that some people suck, and that
if you want to do your job effectively you simply
have to bite down hard and cope.

o Moralizing 'dogooders' who bleat "But
what about the children" and who periodically
harass conventions, create legislation, or
generally engage in other politically self serving
activities are a minor annoyance.

o Working from home has given me a bit of a
belly despite the lazer tag. I just bought an
eliptical trainer which should help me with that.
Good thing I have spare time to use it cuz I don't
have to commute.

Seems to me the pros are far outweighing the Cons
there. I hope I'm not missing anything else major.

Maybe the old addage is true... Money can't buy
happiness. Maybe, but it sure as hell helps
make all the minor annoyances like, food and
clothes and rent disappear so you can get on with
what's important though; love, education, and
generally having a good time. Toss 'God' in there
if you're a religion buff too.

As for true happiness or peace of mind... well, I
sleep pretty well at night (day? ;) when I know
that I've provided in a good fashion to the health
and wellbeing of my wife and kids (physically,
emotionally and whateverelse-dly). I periodically
get these warm, fuzzy 'flashes' where I just gotta
say out loud that life is good. I think I'm on the
right track so far... either that, or I have some
sort of hormonal imbalance. -shrug-

> I on occasion will visit some of these sites
mainly out of curiosity and even
> more, but mainly tend to avoid them, NOT because
I dislike porn, but because they
> are just traps that suck you in to get you to
see the mostest and gross-est and
> the sickest. And among you, is ongoing
competition to beat the others - which
> only worsens it overall. You want to lure me in
to give you my credit card,
> then you'll track me, then you'll spam me, then
you'll target me with products
> and you'll sell my email address and more if you
can get it. You will
> extract every iota of whatever you can from my
very observation. I have no
> privacy in comming to visit your sites because
you will just use it against me
> and to hound me endlessly. Your industry uses
people - but maybe that's
> just more obvious in yours than all the rest!

First off, Privacy is an illusion. If you doubt
that assertion, you have only to ask a typical
private investigator, FBI agent or other
intelligence gathering individual. It simply
doesn't exist. If anyone wants to find out
anything about anybody, they can, assuming they
have enough time, money, and willpower to do it.
Sad fact, but that's life in the modern world.
This isn't to say you shouldn't make it HARD for
them to do it, but don't for an instant doubt that
you're not an open book to all those who desire to
read you badly enough.

The upside though is that most people don't really
give a rats ass about you as an individual. You're
a part of a constiuency, a modifier of a
statistic. In large groups, people similar to you
show up as market forces,
types-of-people-to-be-marketed-to-and-who-buy-blah-product.
You (generic you) generally indicate how you LIKE
to be marketed to and (if the marketing is good
and the money is available) you'll typically buy
at the end of the day. This goes for all things
sold, not just porn. The same cycle worked exactly
the same way when (insert cereal company here)
sold you the box of (insert favorite cereal here)
you just bought on your last grocery trip. Pinning
it on the porn industry is indeed like waving your
sword at the oncoming tide. I personally find that
TV advertising is far more blatant in the ways
they try to market items to individuals... ever
see the way they market a car, or a pair of jeans,
or a cereal?

> I hate the pages that don't let you go by
pasting more windows over and over.
> None of you in the industry actually care about
your presentation, descretion
> or class. If it was blood and not money you
want, then you'd figure out how to
> suck my blood digitally.

While I fear that comment is just a troll looking
for a bridge to hide under, I can assure you that
quality sites do not spam your browser with pop
ups. Only cheapo freebie sites started by 18 year
olds do that sort of thing, mostly because the
real professionals know that popups annoy the fuck
out of people. The worst you'll ever see from a
professionally run company (or a professional
individual site operator) will be one single
popup, and nothing more. Many won't even do that.
The vast majority of the sites I've built have no
such mechanisms for example.

I'm also certain that by and large, pron people
would prefer to get the infinately tastier blood
of truly interested clientelle, as opposed to the
thinly veiled, bitter, bile laden ichor of the
moral deletantes and curiosity seakers.

> I also agree with other posters - stop your
whinning and you also are showing
> your age and immaturity.

A lonely soul cries out in the night, looking for
a peer group of like individuals and that's
whining and immature?

I suppose you'd rather he curse the darkness than
light a candle. Or perhaps you'd rather he see
your variety of light instead. Personally,
I think if the man has a need to vent, let him
vent. Noone's forcing you to read it. Noone's
forcing you to read this either.

Re: Proud eh?

> If you're so proud to be a porn coder, why are
you hiding behind an anonymous name? Why is your
personal page private?

Why does anyone take on a pseudonym on the net?

a) To help avoid spam (email, personal contact, or
whatever else)
b) To help avoid being hunted down by John Q.
Nutball who has some agenda to save and/or destroy
you

I'm sure other reasons exist, though the above
work for me fine.

Choices
I think, generally, in cases such as this it would help to gain a better understanding of the underlying issues by projecting the situation to an (extreme) analogy.

For example, if you were a contract killer, I doubt you would be as confused regarding the reaction of your peers to your vocation. (Right?)

Or, as anther example, if you were a chemist working for an illicit drug concern, (again) I doubt you would be as confused regarding the reaction of your peers to your vocation.

The presumption of lack of harm to individuals and society by pornography is the 'moral' underpinning of your view of the situation. Somehow, presumabely because of your age, you seem to be blind to this fact.

Yes, porn happens to be legal, but then so is the manufacture of cigarettes. (Welcome to the Capitalist Utopia!) And it is precisely because of the structure of today's society were profit provides moral support for activity, that the social pressures outside of the control of the 'machine' are of even greater importance than the 'old days) (say 1800's).

(Anyone here sick and tired of getting an unsolicited pile of porn spam everyday? Who wrote these scripts?)

And since you seem reflective enough, I also point out to you that you MUST have realized by now that the people you associate with have great (whether you are conscious of it or not) influence on your character and its development.

By being a declared productive member of the Porn Machine, you are implicitly advertising a set of values, and it makes little difference whether you are fully cogonizant of the make up of this value set.

Now it is absolutely clear that you, myself, and others are clearly entitled (no, make that required) to forming our own judgements about Life, Truth, etc. Would I agree to do what you do (even though I myself have partaken of Porn)? No, I would not. Because by doing so, I would be contributing my resources to an industry that I know (personally) to be of harm to its consumers, and employees.

(Since you must have access to a great ol' cache of porn, I advise you to take a look at the faces of porn star from her debute to her final exit. The damage done is clearly visible on these faces; this is practically an unrefutable fact. Porn damages (almost) everyone involved in it.)

I guess my advice to you would be to NOT WASTE your talents in order to fill the pockets of some porn kingpin.

Re: It's not the code, stupid

> Actually, you got it backwards :) The
> useful thing
> isn't porn, it's making money off
> porn.
> Let's be realistic, every porn
> coder/webmaster is
> in it for the money. Whether he/she
> started just
> because he/she liked to look at porn
> and decided
> to toss up a page with their favorite
> links, in
> the end, everyone realises there is
> cash to be made.
>
> So to me, it is indeed useful to code
> - I make
> money doing it, the money allows me to
> pay my
> bills and spend my free time writing
> weird articles :)

So, being a hitman is useful, too. After all, you can make a lot of money.

In other words: I believe the original poster meant 'useful' in the sense of 'useful to society'. Mind you that I do not imply that porn is not useful for society.

bye

schani

Re: Sex is good for you. Porn is wonderful. Everyone relax and enjoy some ass.

> I just read that sex increases your
> health,
> happines and life span.
> I love porn. I think its absolutly
> wonderful,
> beautiful, and natural.
> Nothing wrong with pushing nice juicy
> ass
> over the information super highway.
>
> peace, sex, and porn.
> Synaptic.

Keep in mind that watching images of Sex is not exactly Sex.

Now go and see if you can read anywhere that by constantly viewing images of sex, being reduced to mentally fitting yourself into the presented image, having latent homosexuality aroused by being forced (images again) to reconstruct the act of sucking a C*** in your mind, etc. increases your health.

Re: Conformity

> I ask all of you a question who have
> zealously defended SeekingSin, how would
> you react to me?
%
> "The conduct of God, who disposes all
> things kindly, is to put religion into
> the mind by reason, and into the heart
> by grace. But to will to put it into the
> mind and heart by force and threats is
> not to put religion there, but terror;
> terorrem potius quam religionem." -
> Blaise Pascal (after whom the Pascal
> language was named)
%
> --Scott Wheeler

Good show. That's all I have to say. To me, I've

still won this discussion over religion. Simply

because I believe in something totally different.

However, I do acknowledge that people are

inherently judgemental over each other. Myself, I

get along with any that does not attempt to force

me into believing something that I refuse to

accept. Infact the entire point of my argument

with the devout christian was that I was given a

choice to pick my own beliefs. She had been raised

to believe in it, rather forced and taught that

she was given a choice. Granted she has the choice

of whether or not she stays with the beliefs but

fact is those beliefs will always be embodied in

her. So like her, morality in Americans is often

impressed upon others. We must remember that

everyone feels differently about different

subjects. Porn may not be your forte, it is not

mine as I do not like to degrade women;

eventhough, I won't refute anyone who deals in

pornographic material. They make their living in

such ways and obviously agree to be degraded. BTW,

don't forget that it can degrade guys as well (

homosexuality ). I do not believe in many

christian based religions because they often

believe that the woman should be underfoot

(Baptists - No woman should ever preach in a

church). Hate sites are evil to me, they degrade

different ethnic backgrounds or even sexual

preferences, sometimes even different genders.

Look beyond the background and look into what's

being done. Code is code, a hacker is a hacker and

a script kiddie is a script kiddie. And in the end

they all gather around to make use of each other.

Re: Laboring under a misconception

> Your point is entirely based on the
> assumption
> that I would have no problem working
> on a child
> porn site, or any other coder for that
> matter. I
> do. I won't go near it, and if I
> notice anyone
> running a kiddie porn site, I'll do
> everything I
> can to get them shut down. In case you
> haven't
> noticed, most 'kiddie porn' sites that
> are out
> there (sadly) exist on free hosts such
> as
> geocities, or any adult free host that
> doesn't
> police their sites well enough. They
> have no
> high-tech stuff, they don't co-locate
> their own
> servers, let alone hire coders to do
> coding. Why's
> that you think? Because we 'the porn
> people' don't
> like them either.

Actually, my entire point is based on the fact that you wouldn't work for child pornographers. Why wouldn't you work for them? Obviously because it's wrong by most people's moral standards. Why else wouldn't you work for them?

> I am indeed claiming that pornography
> isn't a bad
> thing (the normal variety at least)
> but I am not
> imposing my moral views on others. I
> did say that,
> in my opinion, I should be accepted in
> normal
> society - I never said I am trying to
> force people
> to see my point

I don't think that this article tries to impose a moral view on pornography - but asking people to accept your presence in general society imposes a moral view on them to some degree. What if a child pornographer came up to you saying he wanted acceptance into general porn society? By tolerating him, you would be tolerating child pornography, which goes against your morals.

Without speculating on the presence of absolute morals, you have simply drawn a line for yourself, and are treating some people (the kiddy porners) the same way as you claim to have been treated by general society. The only difference between you and society is the level of that line. This line is important and necessary, because if you found the acceptance and tolerance you were looking for in general society, you would have no justifaction for not working on kiddie porn sites.

Re: do you actually expect pity?
lets not forget
> while the web is not USA only anymore,
> it once was, after all, the net started
> here in the USA...no?

Well -- yes and no. The net actually started in the U.S.

as a military network (Arpanet), the web, however,

didn't -- it was created at Cern in Genevra, Switzerland.

And yes, that's Europe, where, after all, the USA

started...;-)

cris

Re: Proud eh?

You miss my point. This is supposed to be
an _editorial_ about being proud to be a porn
coder.

How can you say you're proud of something
you don't have the guts to attach your name
to?

I know why people why people use pseudonyms.
But to hide behind one while proclaiming you're
proud is hypocritical.

> Why does anyone take on a pseudonym on
> the net?
>
> a) To help avoid spam (email, personal
> contact, or
> whatever else)
> b) To help avoid being hunted down by
> John Q.
> Nutball who has some agenda to save
> and/or destroy
> you
>
> I'm sure other reasons exist, though
> the above
> work for me fine.
>

Re: Wouldn't happen in Europe

>
> % The same goes for you, your the
> one
> % who started this into a country war,
> the
> % author stated he was NOT fromn the
> US
> % yet you felt free to introduce your
> own
> % prejudice, don't claim to be better
> when
> % you flame other countires..take
> that
> % stuff to /.
>
>
> You could read between lines that it
> had to be US or some otherwards sexually
> uptight country, suchs as Saudi Arabia.
> And as you later notice, he mentions
> that he is living in the US, Case
> closed.

No he doesn't, quit lying to win a unwinnable argument.

Your right but your wrong
It is impossible to make any non-relative judgment without resorting to faith in something.

Without some infinite reference you cannot say anything is wrong.
For most people this comes from faith in an authority.

Laws are simply an official writing down of what things we as a society want to discourage.
All laws find a source in faith eventually.

This applies to everything from murder/rape/incest type crimes that most people think are wrong all the way to taxes and town rules about where you can to put fences.

This is a necessary process however. If we didn't make any judgments based on a belief and impose it on others there would no law, no rules, no standards of conduct. Most people realize that this would be a difficult society to live in and thus choose to impose the group's beliefs on those who disagree.

The only real alterative to making Right/Wrong decisions based on belief is to say all things are OK.

Re: Conformity

> % You've got a great point. I recently
> % got into a discussion at school
> about
> % religion. One of my main points was
> on
> % how christianity can be two faced in
> the
> % fact that it says people will be
> forced
> % to believe a lie. This comes from
> the
> % prediction of judgement day. I
> stated
> % that christians are alot like this
> in
> % the sense that they tend to shun
> anyone
> % who is not "christian" and will
> force
> % their belief upon other people.
> % Immediately I was asked if I had
> been
> % baptised, my answer, no. The person
> that
> % asked me continued to spew out
> nonsense
> % from the bible. Someone eventually
> % pointed out to her that I was basing
> my
> % beliefs from things that I have seen
> go
> % on in life and that she was doing
> % exactly what I had been pointing
> out.
> % She had been attempting to force
> her
> % beliefs from a "book" upon me. She
> % became rather upset and frustrated
> that
> % she could not maintain a proper
> % composure throughout the remainder
> of
> % the discussion. The funny thing
> about
> % this is that my class contains a
> variety
> % of beliefs and religions on life.
> % Christianity, the major belief in
> the
> % United States, seems to be one of
> the
> % few beliefs that shun away from
> man's
> % natural tendancies. Porn is a
> good
> % thing, it provides jobs and
> economic
> % growth through the world. The
> coding
> % used on porn sites also helps to
> % increase the intensity of coding
> % expectations through out the
> business
> % world. Why should places such as
> IBM,
> % Gateway, and etc. beforced to
> accept
> % second best coding? Porn sites have
> been
> % using databases for years and most
> % likely code security as well. Bring
> it
> % on, bring the light of real code
> and
> % community work to the people and
> their
> % daily lives. We need to stop
> allowing
> % our peers to de-evolve into "apes"
> and
> % teach them to use their brains
> again.
>
>
> I think that it's important to note
> that by working for a company or
> organization we imply a degree of
> approval for the goals of that company.
> I come from the other side of the
> spectrum and this should lay out my
> predisposition. I'm a perl hacker for
> gospelcom.net. I work there because,
> among other things, I agree with the
> general premise of the organization and
> hope that I can contribute to that.
>
> First, I think that it's important
> that there are people of varying degrees
> of intelligence in all walks of life.
> It is not terribly impressive for an
> intelligent atheist to outwit a stupid
> Christian or other theist. Likewise,
> with my bit of intellectual leverage I
> can debunk the logic of a simple
> atheist. Please don't assume that one
> persuasion has the intellectual high
> ground. I assure you that there have
> been great theist and atheist minds.
>
> Second, I feel compelled to try to
> give you some insight into the
> evangelical zeal for telling others
> about one's faith. I presume that you
> have some friends with different
> interests. No, I'm not talking about
> religious differences at the moment.
> Let's take me for example. One of my
> roommates is a music major and I'm a
> KDE/Qt guy in a big way (We can save
> this debate for later.), and I was
> really excited when KDE 2.1 came out. I
> told my roommate about it. He really
> didn't care, but since we're friends he
> at least acknowledged my statements.
> Now let's say we're talking about
> something more important, say something
> that serves as an overarching theme to
> one's life. You can rest assured that
> it will come up often in
> discussion--even when those hearing
> about it don't care and think it's
> silly.
>
> I too heard a lot of religious
> propaganda in my years before becoming a
> Christian. And I too enjoyed making
> Christians feel silly when I could pick
> apart their apologetic intentions. It
> blew my mind the first time a Christian
> made me feel silly and childish in my
> philosophical assumptions. There's at
> least a Christian or two that has their
> head on their shoulders out there.
> :-)
>
> One last bit of religious nitpicking
> before I actually start talking about
> porn: Most of our beliefs come from
> books that we take on faith to be true.
> I have not personally verified that my
> text from a recent astrophysics course
> is true. I, however, accept that it is
> because reliable sources have indicated
> this to me(specifically Dr. Haarsma). I
> place faith in the reliability of that
> book.
>
> OK--onto porn. I think porn is wrong.
> I think it is wrong to produce,
> distribute or to do much else with porn.
> Why? Well, obviously I have some
> issues with it that come from the
> morality that flows from my religious
> conviction. In addition to that I think
> pornography degrades women by
> encouraging men to think of them as sex
> objects. SeekingSin has displayed this
> some himself in his talking about the
> "fringe benefits." I couldn't work for
> such a place. I couldn't work somewhere
> that I felt was propagating the beliefs
> that I disagree with.
>
> Do I and other Christians shun such
> people? Ideally no. However, like most
> people Christians are hypocrites
> sometimes. It's tough for us to get
> over really different ideas of morality
> than our own. However, this is not the
> "Christian" way of things. Mary
> Magdalene, who was probably the closest
> woman to Jesus, was a whore when she met
> him. Not to throw the Bible at you
> again, but if you are ever curious about
> what Christians believe about
> interacting with non-Christians, Luke
> (third book of the New Testament, about
> 40 pages) is mostly about Jesus and his
> interactions with people that weren't
> socially acceptable (often simply
> including non-Jews--Luke was the only
> non-Jewish writer in the Bible.).
>
> I think Christians and non-Christians
> get confused on what it actually is that
> being a Christian means for social
> morality. I think it can be best summed
> up as this. We want others to accept
> Christian faith, not Christian morals.
> The morals come into play a step
> later.
>
> Now one other weird thing. I get the
> same reaction that SeekingSin does.
> I've had that, "Oh, you're one of
> those." People couldn't pick me out in
> a crowd. I'm a long haired, slacker
> looking, standard fare geek, but once
> they know I'm a Christian, even worse, I
> work for an organization that puts
> Christian stuff online, they don't want
> to associate with me--after all, I
> probably want to corrupt their kids. I
> ask all of you a question who have
> zealously defended SeekingSin, how would
> you react to me?
>
> "The conduct of God, who disposes all
> things kindly, is to put religion into
> the mind by reason, and into the heart
> by grace. But to will to put it into the
> mind and heart by force and threats is
> not to put religion there, but terror;
> terorrem potius quam religionem." -
> Blaise Pascal (after whom the Pascal
> language was named)
>
> --Scott Wheeler

I feel, That If you have a job, you should not be discriminated against....No matter who you are, what your race, religion etc. is. What you choose to do with your life is completely up to you. Now I am by no means a Christian, and I Do not try to "deface" the Christian Community. What they believe in is up to them. But they shouldnt shun somone because of a job. It's the same princepal as if I walked into a hospital, Tried to check in because I had to have surgruy, and when I come to the the questions where they ask" What religion are you" I put down wiccan. Does that mean that they arnt going to to the best job they can to help me, or to take care of me? The whole united states economy is based off of the Christian beliefs. And anything and everything that anyone that is not Christian does is wrong... Now on the views of the pornographic stuff...A job is a Job... And if the people in the pornographic picture, or video, Is doing this willingly. Then there is no problem... What you do with you life is up to you, and no one else.

Re: Wouldn't happen in Europe

> % And as you later notice, he
> mentions
> % that he is living in the US, Case
> % closed.
> No he doesn't, quit lying to win a
> unwinnable argument.

Read a bit more closely. Search for the text string "California" on the page and you will find a message posted by SeekingSin in which he says that he is Dutch, but living in the California. And SeekingSin was also the writer of the editorial.

Re: Your right but your wrong

> This applies to everything from
> murder/rape/incest type crimes that most
> people think are wrong all the way to
> taxes and town rules about where you can
> to put fences.

Stupid thought, but are not these same indecencies
by the law, deemed good in christian based
religions? Wait, that was in the old testament.
According to christianity, incest is a bad thing
yet it was incestry that populated our planet.
Stupid thought eh? Was it not in christianity that
Adam and Eve walked around nakid until they ate of
the apple? I could be wrong here but come on
people, it's like MoonDragon said, American law,
as well as many countries that American law was
derived from, is based upon Christian law. Would
not my earlier comment then be true? Hypocrissy is
a valid force behind this duality in acceptance of
different practices?

I think many people have taken different comments
from this article the wrong way and distorted them
into some sort of religious outcry. Screw religion
and get down to what the proper argument is:
Coders are coders, why should someone coding for
an industry such as pornography be shunned?
Athiests and Religious people alike, have
backgrounds in the sinful field of an outcasted
industry. Athiests are considered infidels by
religions and religious people are considered
freaks by athiests. What does it matter anymore?
Both perform a task, both achieve their tasks.
Coding is done for the spite of being able to
code, once in awhile code is even made into
something useful. Life is life, Code is code, a
hack is a hack..

My Problem with this editorial
I could care less that Seeking Sin writes perl for porn sites. My problem lies in the fact that he had to reply to replies of his own article, an indication that it was not complete. Really, if the author's reply is not "see my article" then the article is NOT complete. The result is a scattered collage of incoherant thoughts which bounce from author to reader and back again. Do I really want to stick around to see how this thing ends? I don't think so.

Re: My Problem with this editorial

> I could care less that Seeking Sin
> writes perl for porn sites. My problem
> lies in the fact that he had to reply to
> replies of his own article, an
> indication that it was not complete.
> Really, if the author's reply is not
> "see my article" then the
> article is NOT complete. The result is
> a scattered collage of incoherant
> thoughts which bounce from author to
> reader and back again. Do I really want
> to stick around to see how this thing
> ends? I don't think so.

The article indeed isn't complete - if it would be

complete, you'd be reading through a 20 page essay

- there's too much to explain and not enough space

to do it in.

Re: Can't say it's a problem
heh. nice article. for anyone that fails to respect the author's sincere feelings, put on your resume that you have coded for pr0n sites.

you will find out pretty quickly that you have become a black sheep.

I totally Understand
I myself have written code for both porn and non-porn companies alike. However, the non-porn companies don't know it.. nor do they need to in my opinion.. I mean, the main question to me when it comes to coding is "Can you do it?" if my answer is yes, what my coding history is, is truly irrelevant, isn't it?

As for the author's views regarding people's attitudes, sadly, what the author is saying is true.. but my way of looking at things is that if the people are going to be that shallow and judge you, then they themselves are just as guilty, because they don't want to associate with you because of their religious beliefs, etc.. but yet, it says in the bible which they are so "boldly" believing in.. "Judge not lest ye be judged (Let ye who is perfect cast the first stone)" You figure it out.. I stopped trying years ago..

And as stated earlier by someone "Regular" companies don't want to associate with porn coders not because they aren't good coders, but because it's "improper" for non-porn companies to associate with porn companies in any way, shape or form..

I guess people haven't seen the protests against Disney because Disney is one of the largest porn producers around.. but they keep it so behind the scenes because people would stop associating Disney with Family, Morality, and "Cleanliness"

porn, Code, Alternative thinking
"Hey Great !"

You guys and girls on the porn team go for it and dont let anyone hold you down. If people are not ready to grow up and learn or accept well they will one day die out one day anyway.

Just hang in there and follow your dreams

Your Truely

Ryder Saint

Re: Conformity

> I've encountered a lot of people who don't
> use their own standards, or even their own
> religious standards, but just crumble under the
> "oh my god what if someone would find out
> that..." pressure.
%
> (And I'm not forcing them to associate with me,
> it's just a bit funny that even people as
> open-minded as most programmers still succumb to
> the media-driven image that porn is bad, hence
> everyone who has anything to do with it is bad)

I think that you are merely speculating about why
people
won't associate with you, and particularly about
whether
or not their dislike of your job and by extension
of you has
anything to do with their own standards or with
media or
peer pressure. After all, if they won't associate
with you,
they'd hardly explain to you in detail their
reasoning behind
that decisison.

Also, in my experience programmers are no more
open-minded than any other group within society.
It is
a mistake to label so-called "liberals"
open-minded, and
so-called "conservatives" close-minded: I dare
say that you
are not at all open-minded about the notion that porn
is bad and that by helping produce and disseminate it
you are therefore guilty of perverting countless
people,
etc. -- are you? Exactly likewise, most religious
conservatives
are not at all open-minded about the notion that
porn is
harmless or even good, and that by helping produce and
disseminate it, you are making a valid
contribution to
society.

Everyone is open-minded towards those things they
agree with
or don't care about, and close-minded towards
those things
which they strongly disagree with.

morals are *always* applied, in every situation
how do we as human relate to one another? by a pre-defined set of rules and

procedures (developed throughout the ages) commonly referred to as morals or ethics. I'm not speaking of societal rules, because they all vary from one culture to the next, but rather basic behavioral precepts, as it were. Some choose to ignore or outright violate these standards.. others slightly bend certain ones, or modify them on a case-by-case basis. Here are a few of the more basic ones we're probably all familiar with:

1) Don't physically harm or (worst case scenario) kill your fellow human beings

2) Don't take action which will result in directly or indirectly violating rule 1

3) Do treat others in the same way you would like to be treated

Along with this simple subset of rules, we each apply our own value-belief systems that we've been raised with. As stated ealier, some choose to ignore these, even the basic precepts. These may justify their actions with a higher purpose (kill in self-defense) or not (psychopath kills for pleasure/demented sense of curiosity). In any event, we all apply our own belief systems to each situation involving others, either directly or indirectly. It's unavoidable. The way others interact with you, the "porn coder," is a matter of the individual's belief system, coupled with the thought of how it (the interaction) will be perceived by others. This also functions in a self-serving manner sometimes: familial values are stressed in public, while in private individuals seek to fulfill their own personal agendas.

The reason porn exists is a fundamental one: we're all different, and certain individuals are deemed more sexually attractive than others (of course even this varies on a case-by-case basis, i.e. what one or many people find appealing others may not, or to a lesser extent). In a culture such as ours (American) which places great emphasis on looks, physical/sexual attraction, this is to be expected. This is precisely the reason the porn industry has blossomed into the multibillion dollar industry it is today. An unfortunate consequence of this is an unhealthy balance (individuals captured in porn media are transformed from humans into objects of lust and sexual fulfillment), and the creation of the "scumbag." Let's face it: if we all were equally attractive, what would be the need for porn? why would it exist? Just some philosophical musings to consider...

15 Hours a day???
I've always wondered how people can work 7 days a week and 15 hours a day.

How many hours do you sleep? let's asume about 7, for the sake of the argument. so you have only 2 hours spare time every day? Do you meet any friends? Do you have

a girl friend? Do you read a newspaper, go to the cinema or anything else apart from

coding? I can't imagine you have enough time for that. Please explain this to me,

I'm really curious. Isn't it just while(!dead) { Coding; sleeping }?

Moreover, I've always wondered about people who spend a lot energy on an open source

project and have a daily job. Do they have a living?

Just curious...

Re: 15 Hours a day???

> I've always wondered how people can work 7 days
a week and 15 hours a day.
> How many hours do you sleep? let's asume about
7, for the sake of the
> argument. so you have only 2 hours spare time
every day? Do you meet any friends?
> Do you have a girl friend? Do you read a
newspaper, go to the cinema or anything
> else apart from coding? I can't imagine you have
enough time for that. Please explain
> this to me, I'm really curious. Isn't it just
%
> while(!dead) { Coding; sleeping }?
>
> Moreover, I've always wondered about people who
spend a lot energy on an open source
> project and have a daily job. Do they have a living?
>
> Just curious...

Heh... the assumption there is that all day, every
day is spent in hardcore nose in the keyboard
coding marathons. That's not how it works. Like
any any other job, there's lulls in the action,
broken up by periods of extremely intense pressure
and activity. Once those periods are done, you go
back into low burn and wait for the next wave.
"Lives" take place in the slow bits. ;)

As for me, I have a wife, 2 kids, a job
(obviously) and we have plenty of time to do stuff
together cuz I work from home. Of course, when the
crunch is on and everything needs to be done
tomorrow (except the stuff that was supposed to be
done yesterday) then it's a little more insane and
I have to sequester myself into my own little
world for a while, but those periods don't last
long and I get to play when I resurface.

My contributions to open source stuff has been
spotty, but it follows the same sort of pattern in
my experience. Things lag along until something
momentous happens and a flurry of activity begins.
In the best case scenario, the paying job is the
open source job and you can do everything without
conflict. Commonly, the open source flurry happens
to fall in a lull in the real job, so there's
minimal effect. Obviously, when real job and OS
hobby meet, bad things can happen ;)

Re: Conformity

> % Christianity, the major belief in the
> % United States, seems to be one of the
> % few beliefs that shun away from man's
> % natural tendancies. Porn is a good
> % thing, it provides jobs and economic
> % growth through the world. The coding

> OK--onto porn. I think porn is wrong.
> I think it is wrong to produce,
> distribute or to do much else with porn.
> Why? Well, obviously I have some
> issues with it that come from the
> morality that flows from my religious
> conviction. In addition to that I think
> pornography degrades women by
> encouraging men to think of them as sex
> objects. SeekingSin has displayed this
> some himself in his talking about the
> "fringe benefits." I couldn't work for
> such a place. I couldn't work somewhere
> that I felt was propagating the beliefs
> that I disagree with.

Sex is not degrading. Pictures of sex are not

degrading. Video of sex is not degrading. Porn is

not degrading.

Telling people that they are of less worth becasue

the engage in natural human tendencies IS

degrading to them. Forcing your opinion about some

activy onto another is degrading to them. It is

saying that they are not qualified to make their

own decisions about their life and their body.

Most people who are involved in the Porn industry

are there by choice, because they like the

lifestyle or the money or because they enjoy

having others watch them engage in sex or for

whatever reason they may have. For many this is

who they are. Telling them they have been degraded

or treating them as if they have done something

wrong or that they are less worthy to live and

make their own decisions is what is degrading.

There are many people who create porn free of

charge, purely for the enjoyment they receive from

doing so. These people have not been degraded in

any way. You degrade them by saying they have been

degraded!

Live in the problem, OR live with the solution
You can't do both. The best advice any person can give is to tell you to stop whinging about how the world doesn't agree with your opinions, and start living your own life for a change.

My opinion of prawnography is irrelevent here. All that matters is that if you pick up a knife and stab yourself with it, don't blame the knife if you bleed. Your actions are not its fault.

You seem to want the best of both worlds. To live in a community that is profitable ONLY because it is despised, but you also want everyone outside that community to like you. Sorry, but you've made your choice, and complaining about religion, etc, isn't going to make any difference. Your choice has carried with it a consequence. If you don't like the consequence, don't make the choice.

As for the server comparison, that's about as stupid as Microsoft's bogus claims. You can't compare static or mostly static content with highly dynamic sites. If your scripts were as good as they "appear" to be, we should be seeing 10x - 100x the performance achieved by systems such as Freshmeat and Slashdot. We don't. Twice the performance is, frankly, abysmal given the performance gains shown on raw benchtests of very basic, or static, web delivery servers.

Last, but not least, I'd strongly urge you to go along to the local branch of SLAA or SA, and see what they think the problem could be. After all, this is their area of expertise, and you're a programmer, not a psychologist.

I think you might be surprised by the results.

I always figured porn sites were on the leading edge.
I assumed you guys were ahead of the pack. Porn always saw new technology as away to earn $.

Re: Conformity
What I find intriguing about this is a more general societal discrepancy between economic and social freedoms. People who are oriented politically to the right advocate "laissez faire" economics, complete deregulation of the economy. When asked, however, if they would then support the free sale of cocaine or heroine these people often say "oh, no, of course for things like that..." (Just look at Mr. Bush, huge-ass tax cuts on the way but gosh-darnit we're gonna fight that war on drugs!) Perhaps this is only a personal observation I've made, but I have definitely noticed that people who advocate economic freedom contradict themselves with reservations about things such as drugs and kiddie porn.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think everybody should shoot up and children should be abused. All I'm saying is that I find the lack of recognition of this hypocrisy indredibly annoying. Furthermore, I fail to understand why people so incensed with economic freedom agree that several areas of the economy need to be regulated, but cannot do the same for the social sector. If you drop out of high school and fail to get a good job, that's your fault these people will argue. It's nobody's duty to protect against that kind of stupidity. It is, according to most free-economy advocates, however, somebody's duty to protect against drug use. What's up with that?So, tying this back to porn coders, code on man! You're simply being screwed over by a hypocrisy most people fail to recognise. You're not doing anything illegal, and quite arguably not even harmful. Most people involved in the "adult" industry are involved by their own will. Most people who would have reservations about working for the porn industry are the same people who advocate economic freedom, and are simply too damn stupid to recognise their own hypocrisy.So, I can only imagine the kinda responses you have to put up with daily, but rest secure in the knowledge that you're working on some good stuff, you enjoy it and the people who object have no reasonable grounds on which to do so. Ciao.

I don't think you understand what I mean
Yes, a lot of these laws have basis in Christianity. But you missed my point.
Whether the law is based on a Christian belief, a Muslim belief, a belief in ancestor worship or a belief in humanism all law comes from a belief that the law is going to eliminate that which we dislike as a group and thus give us all a happier life.

The reason I pointed this out to fireboy1919 is that he was claiming law forces people to accept others morality.
I just wanted to remind people that the purpose of laws is to enforce a common morality.

You're correct that this is a subthread with little in common with the original subject.
To get back on track and probably repeat what others have said, if people don't like the work you do they have no obligation to hire/associate with you. If your only concern is how well the code works then by all means use the code written for some porn site. But some people believe that porn is harmful and thus try to avoid having any association with it. I see no problem with this.

Just like anywhere else you have a right to say anything you want with your code but you don't have a right to be listened to.

Re: Conformity
It seems that you missed much of the point of my reply. My point was not to justify my belief that porn is wrong, but rather to express that a large number of westerners root their morals in the same ground that I do. Given the base of people that adhere to a Judeo-Christian morality there are and will be people that find porn wrong independent of cause outside of their religious conviction. I think I was quite clear in pointing out that Christians don't fundamentally desire to spread Christian morality, but rather Christian faith and that even as such forcing people into this faith is not in fact generating faith, but to use Pascal's word, "terror."

It also should be noted that persons defending relative morality have no ground for attacking morality more conservative than their own.

Moving on: I don't think sex is wrong. Last I checked Christians are still a pretty reproductive bunch, so I don't think this really has to be pursued.

Now why do I think porn is degrading, both socially and personally?

You said, "Telling people that they are of less worth because the engage in natural human tendencies IS degrading to them." On the contrary, this is a fundamental property of organized society. By "human" here, you're referring to our physical, hormonal, or for now I'll call them animal, tendencies. How is sex approached in the animal kingdom? Basically the strongest male rapes the most reproductive female. Do we not have similar tendencies? Of course we do; we too are at some level animals. But, for the good of society we have learned to ignore our human tendencies and decided that rape is wrong. We have dubbed men more than crafty beasts and women more than trophies. We have learned that it is good to ignore our envy of our fellow's possessions and through this and other neglection of our instincts we have become a race that understands respect and honor and philanthropy. Not all things that our instincts urge us towards are good. I propose that pornography is one such thing.

I'm not contesting that people are attracted to pornography or care free sex. I'm just saying that they have negative effects on society. Also, the statements that I made were speaking of people who view porn, not specifically to those who make it. Sure it's a choice; so is cocaine. That doesn't make it healthy. When men watch pornography their animal instincts are baited. They begin to think of women as sex objects. I'm not saying that they go out and rape every woman in town as a consequence, but the effects do manifest themselves in more subtle ways.

You also said, "Most people who are involved in the Porn industry are there by choice, because they like the lifestyle or the money or because they enjoy having others watch them engage in sex or for whatever reason they may have. For many this is who they are." I thought about including a statement to the contrary in my previous reply, but it occurred to me, how many have I known in the industry of pornography? Very few--in fact, I think I've known only one stripper. So I searched for statistics on CNN, U.S. News, Newsweek and N.O.W. (the National Organization for Women) and found no such statistics. I would imagine that not a few individuals end up in the business of pornography for less glamorous reasons. On what are you basing your assertion?

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as combative. That isn't my intent. I find this to be an interesting conversation that has yet to burst into a flame war. Sort of an ethereal coffee shop where we're sitting around debating philosophy over a good cigar. :-)

--Scott Wheeler

Perhaps your problem isn't the porn at all?
I was reading through the article, and what struck

me was the lack of humiliy I saw ...

Stuff like -

> Performance is the holy grail. When I code for

> an adult company, I try to eke every last drop

> of performance out of my code

> Then I share all my information with my coder

> friends, so that they can do it too.

> I work 7 days a week, 15 hours a day. So do

> most of my fellow porn coders.

> Can you honestly say that you've traded the most

> secret of secrets, the best hacks you've ever

> done, the most optimized code you've

> produced, and the nicest libraries you've

> written with your fellow programmers? I have

> I'm a porn coder, and I'm damn proud of it.

> Hence, most of us enjoy a rather nice life with

> a nice paycheck coming in and nice

> fringe benefits.

There's more, but you get the idea. In fact, the

only somewhat humble statement I saw

was -

> Some of you might have seen some of my stuff on

> freshmeat. I'm not the best, but I'm no

> newbie either.

... and even that wasn't that humble.

Yes, these statements may all be true, but it

sounds like you're explaining

to us why you're so much better than everybody

else, and because of that

people should respect you or something.

It sounds like you think that the rest of the

world owes you respect/appreciation. They don't

-- respect and appreciation are things you have to

earn. If you come across in person like you do in

this article, I wouldn't be

at all surprised to hear that some people don't

want to deal with you.

The porn may be part of the reaction, but I doubt

it's all of it.

I Like PORN
My wife loves porn.
We get a thrill from it.
We get off. Porn is not automatically bad.

That's not the issue, though.
Personally, I detest porn. But that's just my opinion, and nobody is required to agree, disagree or give a damn.

The issue here is one of intolerence, arrogance, contempt and religious preaching. Only, this time, it's not from a religious group, but from a perl script hacker.

He would have had the same reaction, had he preached the mightiness of his code, when working for any organization. The fact is, he's jumped into a hornet's nest, and is now whining that the hornets have chosen to sting him.

The fact that he's working for a site of "ill repute" doesn't exactly add to his image. Remember, most such sites are guilty of spamming (and much of that spam violates State and National laws in much of the world), privacy violations (which are,themselves, illegal in many countries), and other such pleasentry.

Because he's coding for them, he's supporting such anti-social and illegal activity. For all anyone here knows, he's the one who wrote the code for them to break those laws.

It's hard to have sympathy for such a person.

Re: Conformity
I think that it's important to note
that by working for a company or
organization we imply a degree of
approval for the goals of that company.
I think that this is overly idealistic and unrealistic. Allow me to grossly overgeneralise, and excuse my hypocrisy, because at some point in this letter I am likely to chastise you for doing the same thing. Any given J Random Hacker probably works for a publically listed company, I realise that this is not always the case, but I know that a majority of the time, it is. In this particular example, this person is working for a company, that despite what it's mission statement says, is purely motivated by the desire to turn a profit, that is what a corporation is for, it is not to provide the best solutions, or to provide the most reliable such and such, it is to turn the largest possible profit in order to curry favour with the sharemarket and get more money from the aforementioned market, there are laws in place to ensure that this is the case, so the squeamish can claim that they are merely following orders. Even in the cases where a company does provide the best solutions in any given area, this is a side effect of achieving their primary goal, profit. Acknowledging this it seems foolish to say that "most people" are tacitly approving the behaviour of the company that they work for simply by being employed there, "most people" in fact, in our field at least, work because they enjoy the task at hand, and because somebody is paying them to do that which they enjoy. The CGI script-dude for petfood.com did not think that he was changing the world and the DBA for E*TRADE probably didn't give a damn when there was a huge fuss in the community about problems with the RedHat IPO, because they enjoyed what they are doing and they are getting paid to do it.
I come from the other side of the
spectrum and this should lay out my
predisposition. I'm a perl hacker for
gospelcom.net. I work there because,
among other things, I agree with the
general premise of the organization and
hope that I can contribute to that.
It's good to see that you've got a higher motivation to your life than merely turning a profit, this means points for you. I hope that pleases you, nearly every Christian I've ever known really loves the idea that they are scoring points, but I digress from my primary thought path...
First, I think that it's important
that there are people of varying degrees
of intelligence in all walks of life.
It is not terribly impressive for an
intelligent atheist to outwit a stupid
Christian or other theist. Likewise,
with my bit of intellectual leverage I
can debunk the logic of a simple
atheist. Please don't assume that one
persuasion has the intellectual high
ground. I assure you that there have
been great theist and atheist minds.
Atheists do have the intellectual highground for one reason, First I'd like to say that I am not an atheist, nor am I a christian, and I think that both concepts are quite presumptuous and therefore flawed. However, atheists as a general rule only state that there is no god, while this in itself is a foolish thing to state because there is no way that they can possibly know this, the definition of atheist does not denote that these people believe anything beyond the fact that there is no god. Then you have your typical christian, whom despite thousands of years of splintering into knows how many different sects, still savagely clings to not only the notion that there is a god, but the notion that there is a god, their god is the only god that exists, and everyone who disagrees with them is going to hell when they die, and they are going to heaven when they die. These are the primary assumptions of christianity, there are many others which are clung to with an equal amount of rigormortis like strength, but I am not going to go into it here, because we already have four unprovable beliefs as opposed to one unprovable belief and I have no intention of mindlessly christian bashing past what is necessary to make my point.
Second, I feel compelled to try to
give you some insight into the
evangelical zeal for telling others
about one's faith. I presume that you
have some friends with different
interests. No, I'm not talking about
religious differences at the moment.
Let's take me for example. One of my
roommates is a music major and I'm a
KDE/Qt guy in a big way (We can save
this debate for later.), and I was
really excited when KDE 2.1 came out. I
told my roommate about it. He really
didn't care, but since we're friends he
at least acknowledged my statements.
Now let's say we're talking about
something more important, say something
that serves as an overarching theme to
one's life. You can rest assured that
it will come up often in
discussion--even when those hearing
about it don't care and think it's
silly.
Your logic is sound but an explanation for why something is so does not necessarily make that a desirable nor acceptable (I hate that word in this context, but I can think of no better.) thing. In the case of someone who's overarching interest in life was to kill a lot of innocent people, I would assume that your particular preference would be that they did not speak about this to you and kindly kept it in the back of their head where it was not interfering with your life. A lot of people find Christian dogma an offence to their general intelligence and a total bore, not just something that they don't care about. I can assure you that it is not a lot of fun to hear the same old arguments again and again even after telling any given person who thinks that they are capable of shedding new light on the subject that I haven't heard before from the other members of the flock (sorry, but that's your terminology there, not mine) And after a while, yes, it is mentally offensive, if you have someone who continually tells you something which you have thoroughly examined, and even though you've repeatedly told them that you've already thought about it as much as you could ever possibly think about it, and you've come to a decision, they continue to try and enlighten you purely because they cannot accept the fact that you do not agree with them, odds are you are going to get annoyed eventually.
I too heard a lot of religious
propaganda in my years before becoming a
Christian. And I too enjoyed making
Christians feel silly when I could pick
apart their apologetic intentions. It
blew my mind the first time a Christian
made me feel silly and childish in my
philosophical assumptions. There's at
least a Christian or two that has their
head on their shoulders out there.
I have never once had a Christian make me feel at all silly, I have not consciously attempted to make any other Christians feel silly purely because they've decided to accept an overarching theme in their life that cannot really be proven on anything but faith. I realise I have done this accidentally a few times, but I felt bad about it afterward, and it was only in self defence from their dreaded attempts at enlightening me.
One last bit of religious nitpicking
before I actually start talking about
porn: Most of our beliefs come from
books that we take on faith to be true.
I have not personally verified that my
text from a recent astrophysics course
is true. I, however, accept that it is
because reliable sources have indicated
this to me(specifically Dr. Haarsma). I
place faith in the reliability of that
book.
This is not a good example, You can personally verify most anything in your recent astrophysics course, simply by arranging the appropriate scientific experiments and observing the results and the fact that they correlate with the results of the eminent Dr. Haarsma. In the case of the bible, if you choose to go to the middle of the desert and curse a fig tree that it should bare figs no more throughout the course of it's existence and it instantly withers and dies, I would be impressed, to say the least.
OK--onto porn. I think porn is wrong.
I think it is wrong to produce,
distribute or to do much else with porn.
Why? Well, obviously I have some
issues with it that come from the
morality that flows from my religious
conviction. In addition to that I think
pornography degrades women by
encouraging men to think of them as sex
objects. SeekingSin has displayed this
some himself in his talking about the
"fringe benefits." I couldn't work for
such a place. I couldn't work somewhere
that I felt was propagating the beliefs
that I disagree with.
In this section you have pointed out that you have obvious misgivings about pornography because it clashes with your religious beliefs and thereafter you have pointed out "in addition to that..", This is interesting because they seem not just a little bit mutually exclusive to me. From my readings of the bible and other related christian material it has been my observation that women are considered as not much more than wives, mothers, or examples of the evil of the world. If this is not objectification on a far more concrete level than the arguably cerebral one of sexual attraction to the naked female form, then I apologise for pointing it out and making you feel uncomfortable. However, it's my personal belief that it is indeed a far more concrete example of objectification.
Do I and other Christians shun such
people? Ideally no. However, like most
people Christians are hypocrites
sometimes. It's tough for us to get
over really different ideas of morality
than our own. However, this is not the
"Christian" way of things. Mary
Magdalene, who was probably the closest
woman to Jesus, was a whore when she met
him. Not to throw the Bible at you
again, but if you are ever curious about
what Christians believe about
interacting with non-Christians, Luke
(third book of the New Testament, about
40 pages) is mostly about Jesus and his
interactions with people that weren't
socially acceptable (often simply
including non-Jews--Luke was the only
non-Jewish writer in the Bible.).

I think Christians and non-Christians
get confused on what it actually is that
being a Christian means for social
morality. I think it can be best summed
up as this. We want others to accept
Christian faith, not Christian morals.
The morals come into play a step
later.

 I don't quite understand how this could possibly be viewed as a positive thing in regards to your religion, you're saying here that the desire of the entire christian faith is that it should be the only faith and that noone else should have any other faith. I would far prefer to be moralised to than to have my entire system of belief replaced with something that I found to be mentally offensive. Personally I would prefer that there was no faith, no faith that there is no god, nor any faith that there is a god and that this god sits on a cloud in flowing white robes, throwing lightning bolts down on the occasional evil soul, and if you don't stand on your head, praise his name, pat your head, and rub your tummy, simultaneously, whilst facing east, at 8am and 8pm every day, you'll be condemned to the fiery pits of hades in the afterlife, because all these things are in a sense an attempt to escape from the concept that whatever happens to you may be purely because of you, and that ultimately you may be responsible for your own destiny.
Now one other weird thing. I get the
same reaction that SeekingSin does.
I've had that, "Oh, you're one of
those." People couldn't pick me out in
a crowd. I'm a long haired, slacker
looking, standard fare geek, but once
they know I'm a Christian, even worse, I
work for an organization that puts
Christian stuff online, they don't want
to associate with me--after all, I
probably want to corrupt their kids. I
ask all of you a question who have
zealously defended SeekingSin, how would
you react to me?

 This is an exceedingly good question to point out the difference between you and the author. How would I react to SeekingSin, well, he hasn't specifically told me that he believed the only place suitable for a woman was on the end of his penis, so I'm unable to be offended by that, even though it's apparent from your moral indignation you've made this assumption. He's told me he works for a company that produces online pornography, which basically doesn't mean anything beyond that he has a job for which he gets paid. To start with, I'd have to say, working for a porn company doesn't particularily mean anything to me, largely because it doesn't indicate tacit approval of that company's actions, but more to the point because I do not have enough information just from that simple thing to make a judgement on what sort of person he is. As for sharing the company of Jenna Jameson, well, I must admit, that if I was asked to lunch with this woman I would certainly say yes, and I would be interested to hear what she was like from someone who had met her. How can you possibly make a value judgement on someone with as little information as he has provided? You, on the other hand, You have told me that you are a christian, you have told me that you would like it if everyone else in the world was a christian, you have told me that the above information on SeekingSin was enough information for you to make a judgement on who he was as a person. Based on this information I could say that I probably wouldn't get along very well with you, the fact that you are a christian alone does not particularily bother me, the second part, about you prefering that everyone else in the world was a christian, bothers me significantly more, and the third part, the part about you making a judgement on someone purely based upon what they work as with no further information on that person and what they think or their worldview in general, bothers me a huge amount. But your question wasn't really "Could you deal with me if you could deal with this fiendish pornographer?", it was "Could you deal with a Christian as readily as you could deal with a Pornographer". And the answer to that, of course, is yes.
Regards
Eric

Re: Sex is good for you. Porn is wonderful. Everyone relax and enjoy some ass.

%
> % I just read that sex increases
> your
> % health,
> % happines and life span.
> % I love porn. I think its
> absolutly
> % wonderful,
> % beautiful, and natural.
> % Nothing wrong with pushing nice
> juicy
> % ass
> % over the information super
> highway.
> %
> % peace, sex, and porn.
> % Synaptic.
%
%
> Keep in mind that watching images of
> Sex is not exactly Sex.
%
> Now go and see if you can read
> anywhere that by constantly viewing
> images of sex, being reduced to mentally
> fitting yourself into the presented
> image, having latent homosexuality
> aroused by being forced (images again)
> to reconstruct the act of sucking a C***
> in your mind, etc. increases your
> health.
%
%

Water is some times considered a good thing. But

poeple drown.

But, I don't understand how the exsistance of a

media can force me to constantly view it or to be

reduced to mentally fitting myself into the

presented media, having homosexuality aroused by

being forced to reconstruct the act of sucking a

C*** in my mind.

Personally; I believe your responce is unrealistic

and bizaar.

Re: Conformity
%Most of our beliefs come from
> books that we take on faith to be true.
> I have not personally verified that my
> text from a recent astrophysics course
> is true. I, however, accept that it is
> because reliable sources have indicated
> this to me(specifically Dr. Haarsma). I
> place faith in the reliability of that
> book.
>

This is the only part of your article which disturbs me, disagreements aside. Isnt it our job and proven duty as geeks, nerds, outsiders, etc.(there are many others I could list here)to question the status quo? Did any of us choose Windows because we heard from a salesperson that it was the 'best out there', or 'everyone was using it'? No, if we chose Windows, it was, hopefully, because we made a comparison, and tried things out. This community that we belong to didnt gain its vitality and endurance from accepting what others say as truth. You can go back as far as you want in history and find a contemporary. Faith is not our virtue. Demanding something better is, and we discover that by questioning, and digging around to find whats better. Often, this is done to the displeasure of the so-called status quo. When something you say really cheeses someone, ask yourself why. Quite often, it will be because that other person does not ask questions and accepts someone elses word on faith. When you denounce their belief(no specific referal to religion here), they have no alternative but to defend themselves because they never made a choice in the first place. Sometimes, they then accept your word out of faith, but I digress. :)
Please, accept astrophysical theory as true, and do your best to prove it wrong. Then, you can stand on your soapbox, and feel confident. I wish you luck.

Ryan

Re: Conformity
I did not comment on most of you reply because I
did not feel it needed to be refuted. However, I
may not have fully understood the point of your
reply. I got the impression that you were trying
to say that Christianity was not the cause of
SeekingSin?s shunning. In an ideal world I would
agree totally, so I did not feel the need to
comment. Unfortunately, in my experience, many,
if not most, Christian?s do not behave in the
manner prescribed by the bible. I do not claim
that this is necessarily the norm, but it is my
experience that Christians do actively try to
convert people to their religion, and do seek to
force their morals upon others. From religious
propaganda, picketing of stores carrying porn,
labeling other religions ?Satanic? (wiccans do not
even believe in Satan), seeking to enter their
morals as laws, wars over slight differences in
their religion, all the way to murdering abortion
clinic workers. I wish Christianity was what it
could be, but it is often used as a shield, behind
which people can do as they please and feel
justified and good about it.

I never attacked anyone?s morality, except for the
need to force it upon others by labeling different
sets of morals ?degrading?. If you do not wish to
participate in pornography, no one is asking you
to, but since you do not wish to participate in
pornography, you are asking that no one do so.

I did not indicate that you said or think that sex
is wrong. I disagreed with your statement that
pornography is degrading, and started my argument
with the statement that sex is not degrading,
which I felt was a good place to start a chain of
reasoning. However, there is a segment of the
Christian faith that believe that sex is wrong
except for reproductive purposes.

%You said, "Telling people that they are of less
worth because the engage in natural human
tendencies IS degrading to them." On the
contrary, this is a fundamental property of
organized society.

Telling people that they are of less worth because

the engage in natural human tendencies is a

fundamental property of organized society? Is that

what you meant to say? That does not sound like a

Christian society.

You claim that sex in the animal kingdom is the

strongest male raping the most reproductive

female. This may be the case with some species,

but it certainly is not the only behavior. Ducks,

for instance, mate for life. The female black

widow spider, kills and consumes the male at the

completion of copulation. In many species of

birds, the male is more brightly colored in order

to attract the female. The animal kingdom is far

more complex then you say.

> But, for the good of society we have learned to

ignore our human tendencies and decided that rape

is wrong.

I do not for one moment believe that there are

baser urges within people that must be overcome

for the good of society, but I would not label

these our ?human tendencies?.

> I'm not contesting that people are attracted to

pornography or care free sex. I'm just saying

that they have negative effects on society. Also,

the statements that I made were speaking of people

who view porn, not specifically to those who make

it. Sure it's a choice; so is cocaine. That

doesn't make it healthy. When men watch

pornography their animal instincts are baited.

They begin to think of women as sex objects. I'm

not saying that they go out and rape every woman

in town as a consequence, but the effects do

manifest themselves in more subtle ways.

What effects? Give me some examples. I totally

disagree that pornography can only make men think

of women as sex objects. I watch pornography with

my wife, and it has brought us closer together in

our relationship. It has challenged our notions of

what our rolls are and helped us grow into better

people. I actually think that there are some good

roll models for women in pornography. I am not

saying that women should go out and have sex with

everyone, but women are often portrayed as having

the power to choose to have sex, and enjoy sex,

and essentially do what they want. This is far

better then the view that the woman should just be

the housewife and has no right to a life of her

own or to choose what to do with her body. A few

decades ago sex was portrayed as a burden for

women to bear to please their husband.

Unfortunately there are some people who have been

forced into the porn industry by economics,

events, or other people. However, I seriously

doubt that this is the norm or even very common. I

do not have any statistics to point you to. I am

basing my assertion on women that I have

interacted with online and in my personal life

that produce pornography and give it away free of

charge, simply for the enjoyment they get for it.

You would say they are being degraded. I say they

are exercising their freedom.

Re: Conformity
I did not comment on most of you reply because I
did not feel it needed to be refuted. However, I
may not have fully understood the point of your
reply. I got the impression that you were trying
to say that Christianity was not the cause of
SeekingSin?s shunning. In an ideal world I would
agree totally, so I did not feel the need to
comment. Unfortunately, in my experience, many,
if not most, Christian?s do not behave in the
manner prescribed by the bible. I do not claim
that this is necessarily the norm, but it is my
experience that Christians do actively try to
convert people to their religion, and do seek to
force their morals upon others. From religious
propaganda, picketing of stores carrying porn,
labeling other religions ?Satanic? (wiccans do not
even believe in Satan), seeking to enter their
morals as laws, wars over slight differences in
their religion, all the way to murdering abortion
clinic workers. I wish Christianity was what it
could be, but it is often used as a shield, behind
which people can do as they please and feel
justified and good about it.

I never attacked anyone?s morality, except for the
need to force it upon others by labeling different
sets of morals ?degrading?. If you do not wish to
participate in pornography, no one is asking you
to, but since you do not wish to participate in
pornography, you are asking that no one do so.

I did not indicate that you said or think that sex
is wrong. I disagreed with your statement that
pornography is degrading, and started my argument
with the statement that sex is not degrading,
which I felt was a good place to start a chain of
reasoning. However, there is a segment of the
Christian faith that believe that sex is wrong
except for reproductive purposes.

%You said, "Telling people that they are of less
worth because the engage in natural human
tendencies IS degrading to them." On the
contrary, this is a fundamental property of
organized society.

Telling people that they are of less worth because

the engage in natural human tendencies is a

fundamental property of organized society? Is that

what you meant to say? That does not sound like a

Christian society.

You claim that sex in the animal kingdom is the

strongest male raping the most reproductive

female. This may be the case with some species,

but it certainly is not the only behavior. Ducks,

for instance, mate for life. The female black

widow spider, kills and consumes the male at the

completion of copulation. In many species of

birds, the male is more brightly colored in order

to attract the female. The animal kingdom is far

more complex then you say.

> But, for the good of society we have learned to

ignore our human tendencies and decided that rape

is wrong.

I do not for one moment believe that there are

baser urges within people that must be overcome

for the good of society, but I would not label

these our ?human tendencies?.

> I'm not contesting that people are attracted to

pornography or care free sex. I'm just saying

that they have negative effects on society. Also,

the statements that I made were speaking of people

who view porn, not specifically to those who make

it. Sure it's a choice; so is cocaine. That

doesn't make it healthy. When men watch

pornography their animal instincts are baited.

They begin to think of women as sex objects. I'm

not saying that they go out and rape every woman

in town as a consequence, but the effects do

manifest themselves in more subtle ways.

What effects? Give me some examples. I totally

disagree that pornography can only make men think

of women as sex objects. I watch pornography with

my wife, and it has brought us closer together in

our relationship. It has challenged our notions of

what our rolls are and helped us grow into better

people. I actually think that there are some good

roll models for women in pornography. I am not

saying that women should go out and have sex with

everyone, but women are often portrayed as having

the power to choose to have sex, and enjoy sex,

and essentially do what they want. This is far

better then the view that the woman should just be

the housewife and has no right to a life of her

own or to choose what to do with her body. A few

decades ago sex was portrayed as a burden for

women to bear to please their husband.

Unfortunately there are some people who have been

forced into the porn industry by economics,

events, or other people. However, I seriously

doubt that this is the norm or even very common. I

do not have any statistics to point you to. I am

basing my assertion on women that I have

interacted with online and in my personal life

that produce pornography and give it away free of

charge, simply for the enjoyment they get for it.

You would say they are being degraded. I say they

are exercising their freedom.

Re: Conformity
I did not comment on most of you reply because I
did not feel it needed to be refuted. However, I
may not have fully understood the point of your
reply. I got the impression that you were trying
to say that Christianity was not the cause of
SeekingSin?s shunning. In an ideal world I would
agree totally, so I did not feel the need to
comment. Unfortunately, in my experience, many, if
not most, Christian?s do not behave in the manner
prescribed by the bible. I do not claim that this
is necessarily the norm, but it is my experience
that Christians do actively try to convert people
to their religion, and do seek to force their
morals upon others. From religious propaganda,
picketing of stores carrying porn, labeling other
religions ?Satanic? (wiccans do not even believe
in Satan), seeking to enter their morals as laws,
wars over slight differences in their religion,
all the way to murdering abortion clinic workers.
I wish Christianity was what it could be, but it
is often used as a shield, behind which people can
do as they please and feel justified and good
about it.

I never attacked anyone?s morality, except for the
need to force it upon others by labeling different
sets of morals ?degrading?. If you do not wish to
participate in pornography, no one is asking you
to, but since you do not wish to participate in
pornography, you are asking that no one do so.

I did not indicate that you said or think that sex
is wrong. I disagreed with your statement that
pornography is degrading, and started my argument
with the statement that sex is not degrading,
which I felt was a good place to start a chain of
reasoning. However, there is a segment of the
Christian faith that believe that sex is wrong
except for reproductive purposes.

%You said, "Telling people that they are of less
worth because the engage in natural human
tendencies IS degrading to them." On the contrary,
this is a fundamental property of organized society.

Telling people that they are of less worth because

the engage in natural human tendencies is a

fundamental property of organized society? Is that

what you meant to say? That does not sound like a

Christian society.

You claim that sex in the animal kingdom is the

strongest male raping the most reproductive

female. This may be the case with some species,

but it certainly is not the only behavior. Ducks,

for instance, mate for life. The female black

widow spider, kills and consumes the male at the

completion of copulation. In many species of

birds, the male is more brightly colored in order

to attract the female. The animal kingdom is far

more complex then you say.

> But, for the good of society we have learned to

ignore our human tendencies and decided that rape

is wrong.

I do not for one moment believe that there are not

baser urges within people that must be overcome

for the good of society, but I would not label

these our ?human tendencies?.

> I'm not contesting that people are attracted to

pornography or care free sex. I'm just saying that

they have negative effects on society. Also, the

statements that I made were speaking of people who

view porn, not specifically to those who make it.

Sure it's a choice; so is cocaine. That doesn't

make it healthy. When men watch pornography their

animal instincts are baited. They begin to think

of women as sex objects. I'm not saying that they

go out and rape every woman in town as a

consequence, but the effects do manifest

themselves in more subtle ways.

What effects? Give me some examples. I totally

disagree that pornography can only make men think

of women as sex objects. I watch pornography with

my wife, and it has brought us closer together in

our relationship. It has challenged our notions of

what our rolls are and helped us grow into better

people. I actually think that there are some good

roll models for women in pornography. I am not

saying that women should go out and have sex with

everyone, but women are often portrayed as having

the power to choose to have sex, and enjoy sex,

and essentially do what they want. This is far

better then the view that the woman should just be

the housewife and has no right to a life of her

own or to choose what to do with her body. A few

decades ago sex was portrayed as a burden for

women to bear to please their husband and to

produce children.

Unfortunately there are some people who have been

forced into the porn industry by economics,

events, or other people. However, I seriously

doubt that this is the norm or even very common. I

do not have any statistics to point you to. I am

basing my assertion on women that I have

interacted with online and in my personal life

that produce pornography and give it away free of

charge, simply for the enjoyment they get for it.

You would say they are being degraded. I say they

are exercising their freedom.

Re: Conformity

> I am a highly moral and ethical
> person, probably more so than many
> people who profess to be religious. But
> I don't believe in God and I refuse to
> conform to many religious sects'
> beliefs.

A technical correction.

To be moral means to be obedient to the word of God. If there is no God, you can't be obedient to the word of God. Therefore, you cannot be a moral person.

What you are is "ethical". This word is derived from the Greek word "ethos" which means approximately "school of thought".

An interesting corollary to these two definitions is that it is possible to be moral without being sincere, but in order to be ethical it is necessary first to be sincere, since ethics does not carry with it the fear of punishment by divine intervention.
Implicit in ethics is personal responsibility.

Morality devolves responsibility for determination of right and wrong action to a third party (God) allowing lawyers and other such vermin to proliferate.

Moral "God-fearing" people are therefore not particularly admirable; any right and proper behaviour they exhibit is attributable to God in the same sense that the good conduct of a well-trained dog is attributable to strict discipline on the part of its owners.

Ethical people, on the other hand, have trained themselves and are therefore much more to be admired.

For my own part, behaviour is regulated by a combination of a highly developed sense of ethics and the knowledge of likely retribution by society, which will not tolerate the program of merciful postnatal abortion that I would otherwise conduct in support of good taste, nature and resource conservation and general personal satisfaction.

In the meantime my tactical biological weapons research proceeds apace.

Re: Conformity
So, you say you are "a KDE/Qt guy in a big way". You choose to be a KDE/Qt guy don't you? In our language, KDE means nothing, at least not according to the dictionary, thus if you used it in everyday language nobody would be offended. Now in some other language, it might translate to something "completely offensive". You choose whether it is offensive or even degrading to use your computer, eat mashed potatos, or sleep with a pillow, but for some they may choose otherwise. For you to say that "pornography degrades women by encouraging men to think of them as sex objects" is completely irrelevent. That is your opinion, and you degrade them. I'm sure you are sick of hearing this, but it is true.

Women watch porn too, because they choose to. I don't know how often in porn, there is a man that "rapes" the women. If so, I think quite a few of these male porn stars would be arrested, and the company they produced the video for would be in serious trouble as well. On another note, you are saying that MEN will think of them for sex purposes only. Have you forgotten that a large portion of the population, especially in our Western culture, is gay or lesbian. What about these people? Should a gay man be not allowed to watch a male-male porn because he might degrade men or vice versa?

We, men, are "crafty beasts" and women are "trophies". And to women, they are female "crafty beasts" and we are trophies. Do you not take pride in your wife and your relationship? I love my partner and I want the whole world to know. Is that not why we wear marriage bands to show that we belong to someone?

My whole point here all in all, is that in the end, you choose what you do and/or watch. If someone engages in sex, or likes to take a sunday drive, there is no difference. You choose to make sex a "sacred" thing that should not be viewed by an audience other than the partaking. That is how you view it. For those who are open-minded enough to accept sex for enjoyment, income or whatever, that is up to them and there is NOTHING WRONG with that! If you were brought up in some society that allowed nudity all the time, I assure you, you would not grow up and say, "hmm, I think I am going to think that nakedness is bad, even though I've been exposed to it all my life." No, you will will not accept it, you won't ever have a problem with it.

I'm done. I am hungry. I choose to go eat.

Military is worse
There are so many 'honorable' programmers working for the military sector, and the most popular computer games are about killing.

I do see some very serious points of criticism against porn, - I don't know which kind of sexual content you are working with ...

But still I'd say it's better to wank than to kill!

Javascript browser hijacking
Fundamentally I don't care one way or the other about adult sites but

when I accidentally get into one, say from a Google search for something

unrelated, typically they "take over" my browser by re-opening windows

as fast as I can close them. Frankly this in itself is enough to turn

me from them even if I were interested. Is this supposed to attract

people to the site?? (Yes I can turn off Javascript but I doubt the

average Joe knows this.) Because of the browser hijacking alone I stay

away from adult sites like the plague and have zero respect for the

programmers who use such inconsiderate tricks.

The hypocracy is almost blinding.

Hmm... so the message your spouting is that people

should be more "Open Minded" and not pay any

regard to a coder's employer? Fair enough. I wonder,

though, what would be your reaction be to someone

who told you that they wrote CGI scripts for the Ku Klux

Klan? What if someone told you "I write PHP pages for

Neo-Nazis and I'm proud of it!" I doubt you'd swap

coding secrets.

Are those examples too outlandish? Fair enough. Try

this: how many people proudly admit to writing code

for the RIAA homepage? How well received would a

coder be among his peers if he admitted to working on

Carnivore.? How about really tight, efficient code that

collects your surfing habits (and contact info) and

routes it to telemarketing firms?

The reason why you get shunned is because people

feel that you are aiding an industry that they object to.

That is their right, and it is preposterous for you to

suggest that people divorce their thoughts about

pornography (for or against) from the people who

implement it.

In short: Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall

out.

Re: Conformity [ to or against Christianity ... ]

> I think that it's important to note
> that by working for a company or
> organization we imply a degree of
> approval for the goals of that company.
> I come from the other side of the
> spectrum and this should lay out my
> predisposition. I'm a perl hacker for
> gospelcom.net. I work there because,
> among other things, I agree with the
> general premise of the organization and
> hope that I can contribute to that.
> I couldn't work for
> such a place. I couldn't work somewhere
> that I felt was propagating the beliefs
> that I disagree with.
>
> Now one other weird thing. I get the
> same reaction that SeekingSin does.
> I've had that, "Oh, you're one of
> those." People couldn't pick me out in
> a crowd. I'm a long haired, slacker
> looking, standard fare geek, but once
> they know I'm a Christian, even worse, I
> work for an organization that puts
> Christian stuff online, they don't want
> to associate with me--after all, I
> probably want to corrupt their kids. I
> ask all of you a question who have
> zealously defended SeekingSin, how would
> you react to me?
--Scott Wheeler

I pride myself on not judging discussion topics as either good or bad, but on how interesting they are, _to_me_.

That said, I find this a very very rich post. Kudos to Scott. I relish fresh perspectives.

As for the tacit approval implied by working for any given company, I think it exists, but to a far lesser extent than seems to be implied. It's actually tragically rare that the individual has total control of that choice.

For example, I am an American citizen, and pay my taxes as an 'employee' of the country. But I strongly oppose many, perhaps even most, of the actions that the country takes. I have no way of saying:

"Here's my money, as long as you don't spend it on munnitions in time of peace, or spend any of it in the War on Americans that you like to call the 'War on Drugs', and I'd like a lot of it to go towards public education and civil rights defense. And while I'm at it, I'd really like for you to stop subsidizing tobacco, and why on earth are we destroying edible crops that we subsidize? I realize there needs to be control over the stability of the market, but surely we could put it to better use as an export or alternative fuel source, or foreign aid to starving nations, better than setting it on fire?"

All of these things that my government does really piss me off, and yet I remain a citizen, secure in the knowledge that I am responsible for my actions and not for those of others. I believe that being a citizen remains my best option, overall. I'm not gung-ho crazy about America, and very few would call me a 'patriot', but I don't feel any particular need to justify my nationality.

It comes down to 'Live and let live'.

One thing that I've only recently been aware of my own doing is 'counter-evangelism', to coin a phrase. I am not offended any more when walking past a church than when walking past a porn store, as long as nobody from either tries to make me go in. Scott said:

> ... And I too enjoyed making

> Christians feel silly when I could pick

> apart their apologetic intentions.

I used to relish making would-be missionaries go away -sometimes in tears- when ever someone made an effort to sway me to their belief. I don't do that anymore.

What occurred to me is that the offense of trying to impose _your_ religion or belief of choice on _me_ may or may not be justification for me to attack your beliefs and impose _mine_ on _you_.

When I run across a porn site, I usually just click by it and go on with whatever I was doing. It troubles me, but I find that if I stumble across a religion-based site, my reaction is mostly the same, but far more emphatic. I find I can deal with porn in the periphery better than with religion, because it's easier to shut porn up. (pop-up windows notwithstanding...grrrr)

It troubles me not because it's good or bad, but because it's automatic. If I stop to think for even one second about it, I strongly agree that Scott should be just as free to express his organization's beliefs as SeekingSin. I find myself appalled at the strength of my impulse to censor him, though.

With all due apologies, I paraphrase Voltaire: " I may not agree with what you have to say, I may even wish that you not say it, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. "

I feel vaguely that I owe something of an apology to both SeekingSin and Scott, if only because I realized my own distasteful reactions. Point well taken. I'm sorry.

In an ideal meritocracy, good code would be appreciated whether it was used in porn sites, church sites, SETI, or nuclear ballistic missile guidance systems. Maybe someday it will be. But I wouldn't count on it. We're human. We're not built that way.

< / end rambling >

-idfx

Re: I don't mind porn!

> I don't mind porn sites. Hell, I've
> visited / do visit my share of 'em from
> time to time. My only problem with porn
> sites is the way in which they
> "market" themselves by
> spamming the entire freaking world, ...

> ... but I certainly
> don't think it's proper for them to
> "spamvertise" the hell out of
> the rest of the world!
>
> Just my $.02.

Kinda funny, if you look at this in light of one of the other sub-threads. Religion does this kind of spamming all the time, in the Real World, where porn is relatively quiet. This is just the opposite thing happening online: Loud porn, while there are no strong religious voices online to be heard...

By that same token, I hate spam roughly as much as I hate televangelists.... Seems appropriate...

-make it $.04

idfx

Re: Proud eh?

> If you're so proud to be a porn coder,
> why are you
> hiding behind an anonymous name? Why
> is your
> personal page private?

Voices trying to speak out for unpopular causes have used pseudonyms for a long time. At one point, it was to keep their physical selves out of danger. Now, with the myriad of legal, fiscal, and social punishments available, plus the danger from the aforementioned nut jobs, I can only see it as far more dangerous.

If a thing needs to be said, say it. If you can't say it without fearing retribution, say it anonymously. It may lose some credit, but anonymous agitators have become a treasured tradition in American history...

-another $.02

idfx

Re: Interesting

> It also advocates a
> "misconception" (at least in
> my eyes but I am sure most of you will
> agree) of females in society by
> proclaiming their (women's) permanent
> availabity as things to be posessed or
> objects to be used by men. Ultimately, I
> think that pornography is very likey to
> have a negative impact on those who are
> easy to manipulate. Of course
> pornography does not kill people, it
> does not even _directly_ make people
> rape other people, but it very likely
> adds to an atmosphere that makes
> violence against or offensive behavious
> towards women more probable.
>
> So in that context I would say that it
> is perfectly right to view pornography
> as something "dirty" or
> "immoral"...

Wow. In that context, Budweiser is the most evil pimp of all time...

While I agree that the existence of online porn may be a part of "an atmosphere that makes violence against or offensive behavious towards women more probable," I think it's well worth mentioning that that atmosphere exists where it will, and if it's thought unhealthy, then porn can only be called a symptom, not a cause, of the disease.
Does anybody here have any info on the porn business in fundamentalist Islamic countries, where it is legal to set your wife on fire if you _suspect_ her of infidelity? My vague impression is that porn is almost unknown to these areas. I don't know about the statistics, but I'll bet the porn / violence-against-women ratio is a lot worse in such places.

And as to my cryptic characterization of Budweiser, I feel confident in saying that alcohol has been a direct and obvious contributor to more rapes, murders, assaults, wife-beatings, and abuse against both women and children than any other single thing in the world. Yet alcohol is legal, for consenting adults, and the underage can get access to it relatively easily. Exactly the same way as porn. If porn can be said to be contributing to a dangerous atmosphere, then alcohol must be said to be a sociopathic deluge.
Ergo, the likes of Miller, Jack Daniels, Budweiser, Absolut, et al, would have to be considered the most "dirty" and "immoral" filth-mongers of all.

Not that I propose a ban on alcohol. Far from it. Used 'correctly', alcohol can be harmless, and exactly the same is true of porn. The vast majority of those who consume alcohol do so without eventually raping and killing women. It has its legitimate use in society, and only becomes a problem (and here I make a sweeping generalization that I think I can stand by) in the hands of people who already have problems pre-existing.
While I disagree with the NRA about a great many things, I whole-heartedly agree when they say "Guns don't kill people; People do."
I think it's dangerous that we humans generally no longer consider ourselves to be "animals." What a stupid misconception. "People are animals, too!"

Pornography makes a poor scapegoat.

idfx

Re: The hypocracy is almost blinding.

>
> Hmm... so the message your spouting
> is that people
> should be more "Open
> Minded" and not pay any
> regard to a coder's employer? Fair
> enough. I wonder,
> though, what would be your reaction
> be to someone
> who told you that they wrote CGI
> scripts for the Ku Klux
> Klan? What if someone told you
> "I write PHP pages for
> Neo-Nazis and I'm proud of it!"
> I doubt you'd swap
> coding secrets.
>
> Are those examples too outlandish?
> Fair enough. Try
> this: how many people proudly admit
> to writing code
> for the RIAA homepage? How well
> received would a
> coder be among his peers if he
> admitted to working on
> Carnivore.? How about really tight,
> efficient code that
> collects your surfing habits (and
> contact info) and
> routes it to telemarketing firms?
>
> The reason why you get shunned is
> because people
> feel that you are aiding an industry
> that they object to.
> That is their right, and it is
> preposterous for you to
> suggest that people divorce their
> thoughts about
> pornography (for or against) from the
> people who
> implement it.
>
> In short: Don't be so open-minded that
> your brains fall
> out.
>
>

Two very interesting points: freedom of expression and

freedom from responsibility.

<BR>

I am an American and proud of what my country has

contributed to the human community. I am also

embarassed by how we mangle those contributions at

times.

<BR>

For those that rant that porn degrades women, men,

both, I just don't buy it. I really love the "it contributes

to rape or the atmosphere of it." Sorry, we just keep

forgetting about that little concept of responsibility

don't we. People who rape are responsible for it.

People who think little of women are responsible for it.

People who abuse themselves and sex are responsible

for it. It's time to stop blamming everyone and

everything else when we have a problem and look in

the mirror at the cause. Only when you know the cause

can we start on a solution.

<BR>

Let's face it folks, the attitudes of most people today

can be summed up real easy - "I support everyones

right to x, just as long as x doesn't inconvenience me,

interfere with what I want or take any effort on my

part. - Oh and it helps if you look, act, talk and hell just

plain think like me."

<BR>

Thinking - that's the real key here - Who will tell us all

how to think - who programs that attitude -TV, Web,

Radio, office water cooler, kid's school, sports, religion -

in other words those thousands of little interactions

that go on without the average person realizing it.

<BR>

Think of how much time and resource (money) is spent

to get the right spin on anything (who to vote for, what

to eat, drive, wear, brush your teeth with, hell even

wipe with)

<BR>

Do we really need to be told all that or do we allow

that to be done to us by our own inaction?<BR>

<B>It's time for humanity to start acting like intelligent

creatures</B>It's time for everyone to worry about his

or her own wagon and no one elses. It's time for

people to learn the attitudes of tolerance to other

people's looks, acts and thoughts even if different from

their own and teach it to the kids they inflict on this

world. And if they don't, its time for them and them

alone to be responsible for it. And it's time for everyone

and everything (government) who has tried to usurpe

that responsibility to get the hell out.

Re: I don't mind porn!

>
> [snip]
>
> Kinda funny, if you look at this in
> light of one of the other sub-threads.
> Religion does this kind of spamming all
> the time, in the Real World, where porn
> is relatively quiet. This is just the
> opposite thing happening online: Loud
> porn, while there are no strong
> religious voices online to be heard...
>
> By that same token, I hate spam
> roughly as much as I hate
> televangelists.... Seems appropriate...
>
>
> -make it $.04
>
>

Heh. I, too, dislike televangelists and telemarketers, and.... ;-) But this is digressing rather far from the original topic. Suffice it to say that I'm glad the legit porn sites don't condone spamming. The only problem I have is that too many of these otherwise legit sites have a "referral program" which is open to abuse. And, even if they do kill the spammer's account, they don't disable the referral ID, which makes it appear to be working still. I think they ought to put up a "we are sending you to *our* front page because the referring account was cancelled for violation of service" or some such.

Those were the days
I can remember when real men (and women) wrote their HTML with the VI editor. Porn sites were the ones paying money and I needed money for college. In those days all you needed was a Sun Ultra at the end of a leased line and you were a Webmaster. Ahhh yessss.

And then there were the dot coms. Work 24/7 and never look back. The whole world was a blurr.

Now web sites are big hairy beasts with racks full of routers and server farms. All you ever see is a small piece of the action. You can work your heart out and your code hardly matters. Sigh.

Oh for the good old days.

Julie

Re: Interesting

> While I agree that the existence of
> online porn may be a part of "an
> atmosphere that makes violence against
> or offensive behavious towards women
> more probable," I think it's well worth
> mentioning that that atmosphere exists
> where it will, and if it's thought
> unhealthy, then porn can only be called
> a symptom, not a cause, of the disease.
%endquote

Pornography is more than a symptom because it is
not just part of an atmosphere but actively adds
to that atmosphere.

> Does anybody here have any info on
> the porn business in fundamentalist
> Islamic countries, where it is legal to
> set your wife on fire if you _suspect_
> her of infidelity? My vague impression
> is that porn is almost unknown to these
> areas. I don't know about the
> statistics, but I'll bet the porn /
> violence-against-women ratio is a lot
> worse in such places.

I would say that these Islamic countries you talk

about promote a misconception of women in society

which may or may not be worse than that proclaimed

in pornography. But we were talking about

pornography, not Islamic culture. Just because

murder is worse than physically injuring someone

that does not make injuring people seem right in

my eyes.

> Not that I propose a ban on

> alcohol. Far from it. Used

> 'correctly', alcohol can be harmless,

> and exactly the same is true of porn.

> The vast majority of those who consume

> alcohol do so without eventually raping

> and killing women. It has its

> legitimate use in society, and only

> becomes a problem (and here I make a

> sweeping generalization that I think I

> can stand by) in the hands of people who

> already have problems pre-existing.

I totally agree with you (on this issue). Alcohol

does not urge the consumer to do anything specific

or to think anything specific. Pornography on the

other hand tries to tell people what behaviour

they should exhibit towards women, how they should

think about women (and children by the way). And

that is a big difference.

> While I disagree with the NRA about

> a great many things, I whole-heartedly

> agree when they say "Guns don't kill

> people; People do."

True, but guns raise the probability of killing

someone in anger, while toy guns don't.

> I think it's dangerous that we

> humans generally no longer consider

> ourselves to be "animals." What a

> stupid misconception. "People are

> animals, too!"

Wouldn't that make it irresponsible to make deadly

weapons like guns publicly available?

> Pornography makes a poor

> scapegoat.

You should have realized by now that pornography

is not an entirely passive "symptom" of our

culture but in fact contributes to it. It is

"culture in the making" so to speak, and you

should grant people the right to decide for

themselves how they want to relate to it.

floba

so you code porn....
I own a pawnshop and have an FFL (Federal Firearms

License), which are also great conversation

stoppers at parties. I used to run a multiline

BBS that was free, except for a small area of soft

pr0n that paid for the free access for everyone

else. We all have our rows to hoe.

I have found the best way to deal with idiots who

discriminate against those of use whose businesses

are on the "fringe" is to be self employeed and

become more sucessful than they are. I don't know

that it changes their mind, but funny, it doesn't

seem to bother me anymore :-)

Oh yea. I need someone to write a script for an

online credit application on our ssl server.

Since it is only one single server with minimal

resources (dual ppro200) I would be happy to have

someone that understands how to squeeze the shit

out of code write it.

programming for porn
I certainly have nothing against people who

program for the porn business. I do like to make

use of the fee sites.

Working in the porn business can't be any worse

than working in regular business.

I would like to know more about contract

programming in the porn business.

pinkstaffp@acm.org

Re: The hypocracy is almost blinding.
It might be politicaly correct to mix KKK and porn, but
intellectually distatrous.

I know a huge proportion of the good thinking US citizen
prefer to see people killing each other than to accidentaly
see two people making love.

Some people say that porn will lead to rape; tell me to what
leads the freedom of buying a weapon... This affirmation has
nothing to do with psychological arguments: if you want a responsible, don't look at a porn that actually is a way to decrease some people's sexual internal stress, but rather to
commercials which deliberately increases it as a way to sell more.

Moreover, as long as the porn images come from consentent adults, what is the problem? Is it so disgusting to see where we all come from? People care less when buying shoes made in China by kids under the constraint...
Some people probably prefer the good old days, when
husband and wifes had to imagine by themselves how to do it, because, O god, no one would never had spoke about it...
There might be a good reason why the most puritan countries
also got a higher level of depression and psychological diseases.

Re: Those were the days

> I can remember when real men (and women)
> wrote their HTML with the VI editor.

I write all my code in "vi" and "notepad" :-P

Hey, I found a bug. Freshmeat double-spaces any quotes after the first.

> Porn sites were the ones paying money

> and I needed money for college. In

> those days all you needed was a Sun

> Ultra at the end of a leased line and

> you were a Webmaster. Ahhh yessss.

I think I'm doing well with a 486sx/25 at the end of a cable modem. Sometimes it's slow, especially if the roommate is playing Diablo, but it works pretty nicely over all. Of course, my maximum hits in one day is about 2,000... but still. not too bad for a personal home page. I am working on something that I do hope to make a commercial venture, though, and I think it'll take quite the abuse, considering I have timed the 486 at being able to eek out 1,000 hits an hour :-)

> Now web sites are big hairy beasts

> with racks full of routers and server

> farms. All you ever see is a small

> piece of the action. You can work your

> heart out and your code hardly matters.

> Sigh.

This is why you do your own. Why work for someone else, until you've built something that someone else decides that they want to pay you for? Then you work on YOUR terms, not on theirs. I've just started (Feb 2) web stuff, and wouldn't mind doing it full time anyway. :)

> Oh for the good old days.

While it seems we always say that, -NOW- is someone's "good old days".

- Eric

Sick sons of bitches

Making a quick buck by writing code that denigrates both men and women. Society can't tolerate people who use their computer talents so others can watch helpless, innocent people getting fucked for money. If I ever met one of the assholes on the street, I kick his ass the first chance I'd get--those damn programmers at Microsoft!

Porn? I'm cool with that.

Nudity & Coders
I for one am with you on this one!! I used to work in the "adult entertainment" industry, as it is now called, as a backend database developer. Originaly with the old 976, 900, 800 adult lines, shortly the owner bought into the online business and I migrated to that project. Spent a good 7 years of my life there not only as one of the programmers but also as the network engineer. Pay was good but whenever I told people what the company I worked for did, it was always the same response a cold shoulder. To get out of that industry as it was killing my nearly non-existent social life, I ended up taking on a sys admin. Serious pay cut but it payed the bills. I have now been out of that industry for over 4 years and even now I feel the cold shoulder whenever I mention that I *used* to work in that field.

So to all of you who say that it's just that people object to what your company does - BULL!! If that was true why hold what I did in my younger days to gain some experience and pay my bills against me now? Do I still work in that industry? NO! Would I ever go back? Who knows, but that's not the issue!

Enjoy life for in the end it'll be gone all in the blink of an eye!

Re: Nudity & Coders

> I for one am with you on this one!! I
> used to work in the "adult
> entertainment" industry, as it is now
> called, as a backend database developer.
> Originaly with the old 976, 900, 800
> adult lines, shortly the owner bought
> into the online business and I migrated
> to that project. Spent a good 7 years
> of my life there not only as one of the
> programmers but also as the network
> engineer. Pay was good but whenever I
> told people what the company I worked
> for did, it was always the same response
> a cold shoulder. To get out of that
> industry as it was killing my nearly
> non-existent social life, I ended up
> taking on a sys admin. Serious pay cut
> but it payed the bills. I have now been
> out of that industry for over 4 years
> and even now I feel the cold shoulder
> whenever I mention that I *used* to work
> in that field.
%
> So to all of you who say that it's
> just that people object to what your
> company does - BULL!! If that was true
> why hold what I did in my younger days
> to gain some experience and pay my bills
> against me now? Do I still work in that
> industry? NO! Would I ever go back?
> Who knows, but that's not the issue!
%
> Enjoy life for in the end it'll be
> gone all in the blink of an eye!

Hi all,

First of all I haven't read all of the comments

just yet but I don't understand why so many people

are having so many problems with the adult

industry. I have worked as a developer for the

Private Media Group (NASDAQ PRVT) and for IMC

which is a holding of clubseventeen.com amongst a

lot of others. I am already working for 7 years in

this industry. Currently I am CTO and co-owner of

a big european hosting ISP.

I am living in the Netherlands better known as

porn paradise due to our liberal laws.

I only notice the benefits of working in the adult

industry. Everybody wants to hear the

stories and inmediately gets interested when they

find out. So for me it's very hard to understand

why so many other people are so uptight about it.

Our non adult customers see our adult customers as

a benefit. They understand that adult

entertainment is far ahead when it comes to

subjects as technology and actually making

money on the internet. Why don't see more people

it like this. It's a fact that no other industry

has such amounts of traffic as adult sites do.

Also adult sites actually make money

on the net and I'm talking a lot of money.

According to my opinion every other type of

company can learn a hell of a lot from the

adult industry. Here in Europe they understand. We

have many non adult customers who ask us to

provide information about adult companies. They do

see the benefit of it. They know that it takes

hard work, and a lot of effort to run adult sites

and to keep them running.

To me adult is just the same as any other. There

is a demand for it and there are companies who

provide it. Isn't that just all what economy is

about? I can recomment

to everybody if you as a sysadmin/developer or

whatever ever get the chance to work

for an adult company you should do it right away.

It's a playground for techies and there

are so many things to be learned which you can't

learn and experience anywhere else.

Besided that they are fun people to work with, the

are serious and hey every honest man will be

jealous that you get paid for a job and be able to

watch hot naked women!

Yes I work in the adult industry and everybody who

does lift your heap up high and be

damned proud of it! We're blessed and shouldn't be

a shamed of it!

-=[DynaMite]=-

Modern VHS VCRs ARE Beta, just w/bigger tapes

The main technical advantage that Beta had over VHS was the tape path. Beta used a "U" shaped path. VHS used an "M" shaped path. The problem with VHS's convoluted tape path was that it was necessary to unload the tape and reconfigure the heads between playback and fast forwarding/ rewinding.

Anyone remember hitting the FF or REW button and experiencing "playback... clunk, clunk, clunk, chucka chucka clunk, clunk, forwarding..."? Remember when VHS VCRs suddenly appeared back in '87 with a "new" feature called Helical Scan, that allowed VHS tapes to switch between playback and FF/REW without the pause-shift gears-go action that had plagued VHS from the beginning? (I do... I was a freshman in high school and spent a small fortune... about $900... on one for that precise reason).

Helican scan wasn't a new invention. It was Sony Intellectual Property. It was the way Beta tapes were loaded into VCRs. For years, Sony refused to allow VHS manufacturers to license the patent, precisely because limiting it to Beta allowed VCR salesmen to gleefully (and justifiably) make fun of VHS as "clunk-o-vision". Then, in the late 80s, when Sony finally gave up on Beta and decided to start making VHS VCRs, they allowed themselves and others to license the patent and make what were essentially VHS VCRs with the soul of a Betamax.

The moral? Beta never died... the tapes just got bigger and happened to become media-compatible with VHS in the process.

Re: I don't think you understand what I mean

> Yes, a lot of these laws have basis in
> Christianity. But you missed my point.

Perhaps you missed mine...I'll spell it out.

Morality = Faith = Religion

This is by DEFINITION. All religion is defined by faith in a set of doctrine that all hold true, which are agreed upon by a group of people. This doctrine includes a way to live. Law is the same.

(If you disagree, look at the US Constitution, called the "highest law in the land." Its got lots of parallels to religious beliefs).

Therefore, what I deem unlawful should be the same as what I deem sinful, since the criteria for both is the same.

I was making a mostly contradictive counter-argument of someone else's statement, as is listed - an argument stating that they are "moral" but not religious, as if morality and religion are two separate things.

Now we get to your point, which I was hinting at, but didn't say. Should we have law, and thereby impose some of our religious beliefs on others? YES! This is obviously necessary, as history shows us. Perhaps necessity is not enough for justification, but its worked as a reason so far (for most men). If you don't like that reason, you can go to some other planet where necessity isn't a universal motivation for action.

So, then we get to this - if I say that what you are doing is against my religious view, I am saying that it is against a law, and I judge your actions as wrong by that law. This judgement is a valid one.

You may argue that we actually get our judgements/religious views/laws from authorities. If you prefer to follow and make no assertions for yourself, then this applies to your authorities. SOMEONE must be justified to judge using their religious views.

The problem isn't the coders....
While running my consulting company, we were

approached by a porn site to do the same type of

work you described. The coders were looking

forward to working on the project. The problem was

caused by our other clients. Some of our "other"

clients are in their 40's and 50's. They grew up

with specific views and would have been more than

willing to change to another consulting company if

we had taken a contract with a porn site,

even though we provided the best service available

(Well, I think so!). Many programmers are also

worried about trouble with law-enforcement.

Personally, I would be glad to trade code snippets

with porn programmers, or any programmers! Hell,

invite me to one of the conventions, I'd talk to

Jenna given a chance.

So, I don't believe that the bulk of coders care

about what you program. Hell, we've come to expect

most "stupid patents" to be broken by porn

programmers. Although some are worried about the

loss of their livlihood. Time will change this

situation for most of us...

Code on, and feel free to show me what you figure

out!!

Your right I guess I did miss your point.
I could be wrong again, but I think that we agree on this topic

The only thing I'd disagree with is that
a moral judgment does not always end up in a law.
To use a popular example, many people believe it should be allowed and even encouraged to smoke pot, but this has not yet led to laws legalizing the substance.

What it really comes down to is, we have a representative republic that decides by vote what our state approved religious rules are.

Of course the founders didn't trust the simple majority with full control of the system which is why changing the fundamental rules (constitutional amendments) required a full 3/4 approval.
Even this level of protection, however, has been shown sensitive to demagoguery and tides of public opinion. Just look at prohibition as the prime example. An amendment was passed that most americans didn't agree with but those who did spoke much louder.

What this comes down to is that we have no rights or privileges except by common consent. Which is plenty of reason to convince and remind people of the rights they have or used to have as well as what rights they do not, and hopefully will never have.

These truths may be self-evident but they are not always observed.

Re: Porn to care giving...

> You know, for a long time I used to say
> that I worked at a "high traffic
> advertising company" because I was
> intimidated by the though of people's
> reactions and it worked as a answer to
> "what kind of company do you work
> at?" I duped parents, friends,

I'd be more leery of someone who identified their

business as 'advertising' than someone who worked

in porn...

Re: That's not the issue, though.

> The fact that he's working for a site
> of "ill repute" doesn't exactly add to
> his image. Remember, most such sites are
> guilty of spamming (and much of that
> spam violates State and National laws in
> much of the world), privacy violations
> (which are,themselves, illegal in many
> countries), and other such pleasentry.
> Because he's coding for them, he's
> supporting such anti-social and illegal
> activity. For all anyone here knows,

I don't have any master census of porn sites

available; however, I'm inclined to doubt that

*most* of them spam. The porn site owners I've

worked with hate spam as much as the next guy.

Further, those I've met in physworld abhor the

practice of labelling things 'free' and then

attaching a 'please input your credit card for

FREE ($49.95/monthly) proof of age'. They don't

use Javascript popups all over the bloody place

(and so far, the ones I've worked for haven't

inflicted ANY javascript popups on their visitors.)

They don't spam. They don't clutter search

engines with trillions of duplicate front pages.

And as a result, the ethical porn sites don't get

noticed by those who don't want to see porn.

While the pushy jerks with a quadrillion front-door

pages, design that looks like the result of giving

a chimpanzee too much crack, and four popups for

every window you close get all the attention.

Re: Laboring under a misconception
% ... Would I want you on my
> programming team even if you were the
> best coder in the world? I would rather
> work with someone who did not tolerate
> and perpetuate the spread of child
> pornography, and many reasonable people
> would agree. ... then you are just
> imposing your own moral standards on
> others.

Sounds more like you are the one imposing standards. Unless I comply with all of you moral conceptions I am unfit to work with you. Alcohol consumption is much worse than porn. Porn is a "distorted" display of the most basic act of species survival. Alcohol kills, period. The mere act of consuming alcohol destroys brain cells (proven fact). I don't advocate banning alcohol or shunning alcohol companies and their employees. I enjoy a good drink now and then (although I should really abstain, coming genetically susceptible to alcoholism - whether the switch is on remains to be seen). Go on write your code for porn sites, I'll judge you based on how I percieve your morality, not on who you work for (unless of course you willingly work for the Dark Lord himself *vague reference to Evil Bill* ;)).

Re: Conformity
All if this discussion of porn, religion, morality et.al is making me uneasy....

the bottom line here is choice(s), having them & making them, to fits one's own needs.

i wonder at what point are we blameless or to blame?

let's start with the pornography issue,......
is it the women (or men as the case may be) who are actually in the porno who are to blame for displaying their goods?

is it the porn site operator to blame for their companies involvement?

the pornsite programmer for making the site workable?

is it the ISP for allowing it on thier pipe?

is it MY fault for installing the fiber-optics that porn travels on?

is the computer mfgr for manufacturing the tool to view & dispense?

is it the chip makers for providing the chips?

is the the back-hoe operator or the dumptruck driver for supplying the sand to make the chips?

this arguement is endless........and for that matter, pointless.

if you don't want to see porn,...don't look at it,. ie. change the channel (click the X). choice

if you don't want to hear Christian 'spew' then don't talk to them. choice

if you don't want to be viewed as a 'scum-bag programmer' and you think it is because you work for a online porn co.,.......find another job. choice

do I have a problem with this guy cuz he is a porno-site coder, i think not.

do I have a problem with that guy cuz he is a christian-site coder, i think not.

infact i condone BOTH of them,..for having jobs,..for providing for thier families,..but for mostly not sucking on the welfare tit.

regardless of what you do for a living or who you do it for,. if you are TRULY & HONESTLY good at it (as opposed to being a legend in your own mind), you are marketable.

if you do not like the image cast upon you because of what you do or who you work for, change jobs or don't 'advertise it'.

if you ACTUALLY like your job, then stop whining. there are those who are not so fortunate. (i happen to enjoy mine, 99% of the time)

we could all post here for months on end and "soap-box" all the issues involved, but again there is no point.

the only issue i have with on-line porn is the lack of a dedicated TLD for that type of content.
NOT to be confused censorship to which i do not believe in, (at least not by the government)!

i was shocked at the search engine results when i asked my 10 year old daughter to give me a report on "Mrs. O'Leary's cow".

Re: Laboring under a misconception

> % ... Would I want you on my
> % programming team even if you were
> the
> % best coder in the world? I would
> rather
> % work with someone who did not
> tolerate
> % and perpetuate the spread of child
> % pornography, and many reasonable
> people
> % would agree. ... then you are
> just
> % imposing your own moral standards
> on
> % others.
>
> Sounds more like you are the one
> imposing standards. Unless I comply with
> all of you moral conceptions I am unfit
> to work with you. Alcohol consumption is
> much worse than porn. Porn is a
> "distorted" display of the
> most basic act of species survival.
> Alcohol kills, period. The mere act of
> consuming alcohol destroys brain cells
> (proven fact). I don't advocate banning
> alcohol or shunning alcohol companies
> and their employees. I enjoy a good
> drink now and then (although I should
> really abstain, coming genetically
> susceptible to alcoholism - whether the
> switch is on remains to be seen). Go on
> write your code for porn sites, I'll
> judge you based on how I percieve your
> morality, not on who you work for
> (unless of course you willingly work for
> the Dark Lord himself *vague reference
> to Evil Bill* ;)).
>

Yes, I never said I wasn't - all I said that this was a legitimate thing to do. I am merely pointing out that the original author took an indefensibly hypocritical position by on one hand complaining about they way he had been treated by "mainstream" society, but simultaneously treating more obvious forms of immorality (such as child pornorgraphy) the exact same way he claimed to be treated. In other words, if he has the right not to associate with child pornographers (which he claims he refuses to do) then I have the right not to associate with him, regardless of the validity of our own moral perceptions. Clearly he didn't examine all points of view. I don't really see what alcholohism has to do with it.

Re: Laboring under a misconception

>
> Yes, I never said I wasn't - all I
> said that this was a legitimate thing to
> do.

Actually it is illegal in the US to not hire someone based on your religous beliefs, and your moral values would qualify as religous beliefs; ergo discrimination based on religion.

> I am merely pointing out that the
> original author took an indefensibly
> hypocritical position by on one hand
> complaining about they way he had been
> treated by "mainstream"
> society, but simultaneously treating
> more obvious forms of immorality (such
> as child pornorgraphy) the exact same
> way he claimed to be treated. In other
> words, if he has the right not to
> associate with child pornographers
> (which he claims he refuses to do)

Actually he never mentioned anything about child porn, that was your interjection. All I got out of his rant was that the people he tries to hang with treat him like a leper. Their right to do so, but not employers. He should look for more open-minded people to associate with.

> I have the right not to associate with
> him, regardless of the validity of our
> own moral perceptions.

Granted.

> I don't really see what alcholohism has to
> do with it.
>

Nothing, I was making an analogy like your child porn analogy. Many people view alcohol consumption as morally acceptable and pornography as not. What a twisted logic that is. Oh, wait who ever said humans were logical?

Drink alcohol = you kill yourself and posibbly others.

Have sex = guarantee survival.

Hmm, which one is more acceptable.

Re: Conformity
It makes me to smile when you say porn coders are better programmes than others because they need smaller computers.

Finally, what has to do a porn server ? Only to release pictures, advertisements, and to check users who want to access it.

Really, I think your perl programming has nothing to do with it.

It also makes me to smile when you say you provide a work to many people and you imagine future technologies.

Wazaa ! If I were a woman, I would not like to work for porn industry. I imagine after a few months of working you must be near of diing because of depraved life that comes with it (drugs, alcohol...).

You are a man. How many men does a porn site need ? As much as I know, the next I'll do, only 1 :). And your work can be used for many sites.

Also, you say you make big money. I don't think this money goes to society (tax -> public service), but only to a few people who are more nasty than others.

And about future technologies, let me say you everybody knows sex.com wrote the first java specifications, of course, and also the same about old new technologies.

Finally, I have nothing against you if you only do coding, but I think porn industry is immoral.

Re: Conformity

> You're not doing anything
> illegal, and quite arguably not even
> harmful.

But, you are doing something which is quite arguably harmful, just as you are with the sale of drugs and kiddie Pr0n. This argument is perhaps one for another debate, but it is enough to easily express that those who defend freedom of expression and inalienable rights while limiting what they deem immoral are not hypocrites.

If these things are harmful, then they do or might hurt the pursuit of happiness or life and therefore might or should not be allowed. In essense, the belief is that freedom is HARMED by allowing these things, since it potentially limits pursuit of happiness or life.

You're right in saying that some freedoms are being limited...but these freedoms are never defended by your "hypocrites." Freedom to harm yourself is always opposed. So they're not really hypocrites...just those who see their own viewpoint a little clearer than you do.

i have noticed
i have been sitting here reading all these comments.. and have to now put my 2 cents worth in..(late as it may be)..i see people talking about porn webhiting.. i have actually been webhited by more so called "normal" websites then porn ones.."buy this camera..declear bankruptsy here.. come here to gamble"..i can actually turn on my computer and not do anything and these sites will still popup trying to get me to go there true some porn sites do webhit..but for that to happen you have to first go there...I seen alot of talk about porn sites and rape..and women.. check your police files...men can also be rapped..and on the same coin..does the mean if i watch bugs bunny drop a anvil on elmers head.. that is going to make me want to go out and do that...i think not..i read how porn sites degrade women..no one FORCED these women to pose for these sites..(and bet they got paid well for doing it to)..alittle something god built into us call... "free will of choice"..i also read how it is not moral..and bad for kids and families.. well another point for free will of choice.. there are enough programs out there now that partents can put on their systems to keep their kids out of these sites..and alittle parenting would not hurt either...i have 3 kids and do monitor what and where they go on the computer..

Adult web maven has much different reactions, better experiences
I make web projects for a few different clients, all of which have involved "prurient matter" to some degree. My latest project has involved a lot of gay porn from the sixties and seventies, meaning that the models actually look attractive to me; usually they don't.

I am experiencing no repulsion from anyone at all! Even my mother at the age of 74 thinks it's a gas and loves it. I get to spend my days at work looking at naked pictures of attractive long-haired boys and men. Anyone would want a job that involves doing something they'd do on their time off! Indeed the reactions I have received from others has been of curiosity...

"What an interesting job!"

"They looking for anyone else to work?"

"You ever get photographed?"

I halfdisappoint them there... but my mate, who also works with this client and does the perl writing part of these projects, has put up a site with pictures of both of us. We have fun.

I couldn't ask for a better job, really, when you get right down to it.

So why no repulsion when I tell people my job? Maybe it is just that my circles tend to be less "straight" and more "underground" , so don't have the automatic sexual embarrassment that the subject of porno can cause in some people.

Maybe, though, it's just because I'm a woman. (But for me, woman-ness is just on the outside, like clothing. My gender is actually sort of a nullvoid.) But I guess people look at me and see a girl who works in gay porn...and thus makes the instant assumption that I'm obviously not being "exploited".

People on the outside view this industry only through the filters of the mass media lens: a lens which only aims itself at events which can be filtered as scandalous exploitation tales that the media peddles as infotainment. A great many people in the sex industry, though, find their work to be an enjoyable thing and also find it gives them empowerment.

I knew a prostitute very closely a long while back, who got a power rush from working lying on her back for 15-20 minutes, while a client projected his personal fantasy film loop onto her. She would just zone out on drugs or her own daydreams. Blissfully unaware. She'd make hundreds at a time like this...

When I make a web page that presents the client's photos well, I feel that ordinary pride in a job well done. I suppose that the satisfaction shows. And thus there's no repulsion.

Psychaotic

Choice is paramount. I made the right one.
You write:

> Or, as anther example, if you were a chemist working for an illicit drug concern, (again) I doubt
%you would be as confused regarding the reaction of your peers to your vocation.

That should depend on the drug. It confuses the issue to talk of all recreational substances under one umbrella term "drugs", implying that all drugs harm those who consume them. Some do, some don't, some both harm and also benefit, depending on circumstance. To assume all drugs harm equally gives credence to those who want to make self-determination of their own brain states more and more prohibited, which makes for more harm in the long run.

%Yes, porn happens to be legal, but then so is the manufacture of cigarettes.

And yet marijuana, a much less dangerous, less-addictive drug than cigarettes or alcohol, one that is becoming known to have some anti-cancerous capabilities, and one which has been enjoyed all over the planet for tens of thousands of years...is ILLEGAL. Because it cannot be patented by the pharmocorp cabals, most likely. And also, because it is associated with sexuality. The earliest campaigns against marijuana suggested that it would make Black and Mexican men libidinous beyond control and cause them to rape white men's daughters and wives. Now porn has been accused of virtually the same thing.

Does it always come back to sex? To the bewildering need some have to prevent sexual enjoyment?

> it is precisely because of the structure of today's society were profit provides moral support for activity
> that the social pressures outside of the control of the 'machine' are of even greater importance than in the 'old days'

This is not a good direction to take a society, for it only leads to it becoming an unfree, undemocratic one if these "social pressures" become so strong that they become prohibitive to those trying to make a living.

BOTTOM LINE:

Those who don't want to smoke cigarettes, read porn and take drugs don't have to do these things.

People who do not like these things for any reason should not spend so much time and effort thinking about them, and exposing themselves to them as part of their massive effort to make other peoplenot do these things!

They seem to insist that it is morally proper to prevent another from experiencing something she wishes to because THEY think it's harmful for her. Why doesn't she get to decide that?

This is not right. If they are over the age of eighteen they are adults - that need to be regarded as such, and not treated as children. Under that age, a child is responsible to follow the decrees of his or her parents. But no one should act in loco parentis after they become legal adults.

> Anyone here sick and tired of getting an unsolicited pile of porn spam everyday?

{holds up hand high} We ALL hate spam.

> Who wrote these scripts?

Probably not SeekingSin. Tech geeks tend to hate spam even more than the average email user. I'm sure he would like to throttle the guy who wrote that script, or at least the one who SOLD it to the SPAMMER jerks, just as much as all of us would.

See, porn SPAMS are a cross-over. They are forced into our email boxes without being asked for. This is different, it IS harmful, it steals bandwidth, causes social embarrassments when people who don't understand that EVERYONE gets these spams sees one of them, and it is also annoying the hell out of me! But only because it broke my choice barrier.

> No, I would not. Because by doing so, I would be contributing my resources to an industry that I know (personally) to be

> of harm to its consumers, and employees.

Can you elabourate? What are you claiming is the "harm"? I mean, show concrete examples, please, not abstractions about "decency".

I continue to contend that I have been only enriched and never harmed by my involvement in this industry. And I SHOULD know best about this one matter, at least.

%take a look at the faces of porn star from her debut to her final exit. The damage done is clearly
> visible on these faces. Porn damages (almost) everyone involved in it.

I would advise you to look at ANY photographs of ANY human being at the ages of 18, 25, 30, 35 and 40. You will see the same progression there. It's called "aging" - and everyone gets to do it...some faster, some slower. That's genetics.
Some are able to fool the camera a little with little cosmetic improvements, and many are the photographers who have created illusions with the camera that turn a young woman old, an old woman young. A porn star who is also taking heroin and smoking crack may show a marked decline, and I think you may be basing your claim around one of these "then and now" series collections.

There is a certain phase of life - when I had no love interests or schoolwork - in which direct involvement in the sex industry (work as a call girl) was emotionally right for me. It would not have been right for me if it had been done at the wrong point in my life or for longer than the length of time I should havet, which was about three years. Now I work on the periphery of it, making web designs and graphics used on sites. It's good money and I am qualified to do the work. I can think of a great many other jobs which would have me all wrinkled and flabby-faced in about three months from the boredom and the stress. Come to think of it, people have been telling me this year that I'm looking better than I had before I started doing this work.

Please don't judge all adult websites from the torrent of spam. My clients' sites never spam and never will as long as I am working on them! Our perl coder sees to it that those who spam US lose their accounts for it...FAST.

Re: The hypocracy is almost blinding.

> [...]

> see two people making love.

> [...]

I have yet to see any porn where people are "making love." You do know the difference, right?