Why not?
I agree that it would be good to have free software for windows. I don't agree that that software should be included on freshmeat unless... The software directly impacts Linux (such as access to an ext2fs partition). That's the way I feel about all other platforms as well. If the software can be relevant to people using Linux, include it. If not don't.

So Freshmeat is a Linux site?
I thought Freshmeat was an "open-source" site. Wether you want
to believe it or not, there is plenty of Windows-specific open source
software. It should be included.

Suppose someone posted an app that was of interest only to a user of a particular *BSD, or other alternative OS (such as VSTa) -- i.e.
the software wouldnt compile on Linux, or would otherwise be meaningless to Linux users. Should it be included then?

If it meets the criteria of being open source -- that is that the
source code be freely available, under a license that permits reuse,
it should be included no matter what OS it is for. Someone will find a use for it.

I'd prefer that Freshmeat *NOT* be a Linux-only site. There are lots
of other OSes out there, some of them free+open source.

keep it clear...
I like to come to freshmeat and immediately see if there is software of interest to me. This is Linux software. I would find it anoying to find windows-only software in the list of updated software.
So if you want to add windows-only free software, it would be good to create a page specific for the windows software.
I don't use windows at all, so it wouldn't interest me seeing windowds-only updates....

Freshmeat is aimed at providing open source UNIX programs
That is at least what i thought and knew.

If freshmeat is only open source it has to include ALL platforms yes even amiga, atari and such. Even hp calculators as far as i know.

As a conclusion if you want other platforms open source software it is fine with me but i would appreciate it very much if i could have a option to see only 1 or more platforms. Or else i will get to many unrelated programs/information for me

Happy coding!

Open Source?
I don't think that I would consider freshmeat much of a dedicated open source site. Granted the majority of the software it lists is opensource, and it may just me, but the "License: Commercial", "License: Free to use but restricted", and "License: free for non-commercial use" seem to be showing up more and more often. Maybe we should ask those that run freshmeat, What _is_ freshmeat supposed to be?

mind the audience
Windows Opensource in itself may just be a good thing, yet the
current flock of readers on freshmeat have their mind set elsewhere.
It would hence be better to create a companion website that
informs about the rest, but freshmeat should keep its style of
being quite strictly bound to Opensource developments. In the
other case, people would just walk away to another site where
there they are not flooded with articles not in their domain of interest. That said, I'd like to emphasize the first comment in this
series: some Windows-software is of interest to
the current readers of freshmeat, including ports of favourite
Opensource software like the GIMP to windows, even if that is
just to inform some of my friends about alternatives that will
still work best when they switch their OS soon...

www.freshmeat.net -> unix.freshmeat.net win32.freshmeat.net
For me, I always thought freshmeat was as much as my favorite website for catching news on *BSD and Linux software. However it's great to have a Free Software Central for all the OSes, but PLEASE, keep in mind that I would like to have a possibility to ONLY browse what interests ME, Linux and BSD stuff. So if you include Windows software (good why not?):

freshmeat.net -> unix.freshmeat.net / win32.freshmeat.net

1. it'd be good 2. it'd be hypocritical not to
1. It would be good, because I just _know_ there are some great
free programs out there for windows... that need only some work
to port to unix and/or Wine. example: JWP, a great japanese word processor.
2. you have commercialish half-ass-open programs on here all the
time.. IMHO a totally free program for windows is more 'free' than
a "pseudo-free" program for un*x.... hell maybe we can replace
some of those 'psuedo free' un*x programs with un*x ports of truly
free windows stuff... or even just ports to Wine.

win32 software
While I feel that windows-only software should have it's own section, having win32 builds of gnu software would come in quite handy. We have links to tarballs, .rpms, and .debs, why not one more to win32 .zips?
-dilinger

windows and open souce
I knew when I saw the posted question that there would be win9* bashing and thus far to little focus on the question asked. What does it matter if you hate win? Why is that? Because very time you download a new app it annoys the piss out of you with registation demands? Or that the OS itself and apps are unstable? I think those are 2 major points in the anti-win9* movment. Don't get me wrong here, I've been a devote linux user for 3 years now. But as Ive come to love open source as it makes my system better , I feel that open source for windows based apps would be the best thing that happened to it. I can't find the link.....but recently there was an SSH client for windows released with all the src code, obviously this is a good start. We need more free compilers like DJGPP for windows to be released, a free version of VB would be incredable, its WELL within m$ power to relase a stripped down VB compiler ect as freeware. Most windows based software is written by coders who have been infected by the m$ greed virus, they anoy you till you either crack the software or pay for it. Can this change? YES! It won't happen overnight, the base in which software is deveoped on win is the oposite from linux and GPL, one is love of code, the other a love of money. Win is a great system for developing apps, ya its not great for a server or anything linux is good at. What I often say to felow linux addicts is that while linux is kickass its not the soulution for EVEY computing aspect. Windows drives the whole videogame market, personally I can't stand games but they look like fun to code as I love gfx work. I had a point....ya. Windows and open src is a great idea! It just can't be looked at in the same manner as it is for linux. Differnet OS' need differnt points of view, even if on the same path to open src.
Hope this was semi clear......forgive spellin errors :)

./endrant

Nothing against windows
I'm one of the GNU generation. All I do is under GPL.
The programe may be for free, but the OS is not.
I also think, it would be to much "garbage" when you acept all kind of sofware.
OR
IF freshmeat becomes *only* a server for sofware that is under copyleft and only under it.

freedom to run software
I had to pay approx. $1100 to run my software b/c i had to buy the computer it runs on. Until the day that we are all born with computers (gov sponsored computer distribution?), running software will always cost something. You may not be paying for the *software* that it is running, and perhaps the *software* is open sourced, but what about the *architecture* that the machine is running on?

Plus, the article seems to indicate that freshmeat is biased towards only indexing GPL'ed software, but pseudo-commercial software gets announced as well, not to mention the myriad of other licenses - BSD-style, Artistic, etc.

It is ridiculous when you start to question all the little aspects of open source. A better question: what can we do/change that will benefit the majority of our users? Given that the number one download (according to http://www.freshmeat.net/about.php3 (http://www.freshmeat.net/about.php3)) is Wine, the Windows emulator, i believe there must be fairly large base of users that are interested, in some form or fashion about running software on Windows. Providing a database of opensource windows apps for them would be beneficial.

Whether or not you do provide listings of open source Windows software, one thing freshmeat is missing is a misson statement. The about (http://www.freshmeat.net/about.php3) page would seem to be the ideal place to find such a statement, but it does not state that "freshmeat is a repository for open source software", let alone for only linux, gpl'd open source software.

my thoughts
I think of Freshmeat as a site for *nix (mostly Linux) related apps. Freshmeat's name doesn't exactly say what the site is for, just like slashdot doesn't... Both are in danger of changing loyalties at any moment. This could be a good thing if you think "business"-wise. For instance, this could mean that the owner(s) of Freshmeat could turn it into an online shopping mall and ditch open source and make big money, which would be positive for them.

It could also turn into a BeOS-only or Win32-only site, or whatever. Sure, everyone says we should allow any OS to be fair... but, as someone pointed out Freshmeat allows proprietary licenses to show up. Freshmeat has been very Linux biased which is why you see so many GPL'd apps (with a few commercial and non-OSS software showing up), take that away and you'll find a lot more proprietary applications getting registered.

Here's my solution. If you want to include other OS's and be fair, then stop allowing proprietary applications. (Also, set up different sections for different OSs, and possibly "multiplatform" sections, a lot of Linux apps are multiplatform already, says something doesn't it?) If you want to allow proprietary applications, then align with Linux-only or be prepared to turn into a non-OSS site.

Is it Free Software if...
you need non-free tools to build it? There are several packages floating around that are open-source for Windows, but will only build under Visual C++. If Freshmeat were open to Windows Open Source packages, would these qualify?

Is it as simple as this...?
Why not enable full-featured, user-specific profiles like Slashdot?

If I want "My Freshmeat" to include only GPL'd software available for Linux, that's what would appear. If commercial games for Windows is my bag, so be it.

This would allow Freshmeat to expand coverage to any platform/licensing model desired while offering additional functionality to its user base.

Seems like a win-win, no?

Embrace and extend
It's time for open source people to embrace and extend.
The Linux community doesn't have to always play the defensive role.

Freshmeat can become a major hub if it doesn't exclude.

I think maybe Freshmeat can group Linux open source software and Windows open source software together. And then you just look at your group you're interested in.
Maybe have Windows section in light red and Linux section in light blue.

It's all about the apps and so to make the OS not such an important thing, these should be a base of open source apps that are cross platform. That it a better solution then everyone trying to use Java applets to get this effect.
Cross-platform native open source will change things.
Windows shareware developers won't be able to float poor shareware out there anymore expecting it to sell.
They will once again have to provide a value add.

Free Software and OpenSource
There's a lot of free software for windows, but few give away their source code...
If the source is available, then I think it deserves a place on fresmeat...
But it's important to understand that it's on freshmeat because you can have the source, not because it's [just] free...

OpenSource for Microsoft?
I am really skeptical now on the idea of developing OpenSource programs for a commercial OS. Even though I once ported Midnight Commander for NT, I now think that giving OpenSource support for an OS that is commercial is nonsense. If m$ wants to have a large platform, then let it write all the software for it, and pay the costs of developing all products for their low quality OS. I think we may better avoid supporting Windows the same way many hardware manufacturers ignore writing drivers for Linux.

Win32 software and filtering
I can't think of a reason why I would possibly be against getting the word out on any kind of free software, completely independant of what platform it runs on. If people submit GPL'd software that runs on the Foo-OS written by Joe Bloe and used by a total of 4 people in the universe, I don't see why it shouldn't get into freshmeat.

But at the same time, i don't really want to see submissions that run only under Win32 or Foo-OS because it has no relevance to my situation. I don't mind software written for FreeBSD or other another UNIX because it's usually not too difficult to tweak for linux. But win32 software is a whole other ball of wax for porting.

It would be nice if the entries boxes were at least color coded, (like, blue boxes correspond to win32) so I can visually skip over the ones that I know I'm not going to be interested in, and so on. Even better would be a slashdot like system where I could filter out everything by topic (win32 software) or what another poster suggested, unix.freshmeat.org and win32.freshmeat.org.

The one thing I gotta say is that I would prefer all software on this site to be only opensource/free software. But that's not really a strong preference. I know there's a lot of people who get something out of the non-free submissions, and I don't care enough to take that away from them in the name of convenience on my part.

So please, put any free software in here that applies IMHO, just let the users choose what they want to see in some format.

Unix/GNU only
There are many sites related to Windows software. I want a site related to Unix/GNU software. If FreshMeat becomes Windows-too site, I think, there will soon be an alternative site for fresh Unix/GNU software.

Of course, if the software is platform independent it is welcome here.

Policy should be consistent across platforms for commercial and free apps
Freshmeat already accepts appindex entries for commercial UNIX software. If the Freshmeat staff decide they don't want to support appindex entires for Windows software, it shouldn't be based on the presumption that the software is commercial, therefore irrelevant, or free, and therefore related to Free Software.

This means (from my perspective) that if you don't want to publish entries for commercial Windows software, you shouldn't publish entries for Free Windows software either. However, that has *nothing* to do with whether the software is commercial or Free, and everything to do with whether the Freshmeat staff wants to limit tracking and publication to UNIX oriented software.

However, if you take this position and implement a policy to limit the database to UNIX applications, you should also remove MacOS, BEOS, and applications for any other OS out there, except UNIX. Now, after editing the database to maintain this consistent policy, just how do you handle cross platform projects like ABIWord and Mozilla?

IMHO it would be far easier to just accept any and all appindex entries for both commercial and non-commercial apps across *ALL* platforms, and let the users decide which one's they like. As long as licensing is well established us users can figure out for ourselves which apps we wish to D/L.

JMNSHO,
Maynard

1. Priorities 2. We Are Borg.
1. Initially, I would absolutely support listing Win32 ports for apps that already have Linux/BSD ports. This would merely require adding one line to the download list. If the number is large, then finding a way to filter what is presented to the Freshmeat site visitor would be needed.

2. Getting as much Open Source software as possible on the Windows platform will make it harder for MS to dominate the platform as it has in the past. They might even have to innovate, or produce some Open Source products of their own.

Now, where is that Win32 Enlightenment port I was working on...

propell win32?
I think wondoze software is a bad idea on freshmeat. If you
want to do that, fine i'd say it would be better to split the
site into unix/win32. If things get mixed up I'll probably
never visit freshmeat again. BTW I never click on links to
programs that have a "commercial" license anyways.

On the other hand opensource on windows would cretainly suck.
Most windoze users are clueless about how programs work, how an
OS works. Windoze is closed-source, badly written, it
runs like shit and wastes a lot of resources. You never know
what's going on behind the GUI -- the user is blind-folded. If you want to write opensource do it for other more opensource-friendly OS'es like BeOS, Solaris etc. Don't help Bill Gates promote windoze.

Windows apps on freshmeat.
I too agree that if windows applications are going to be announced on Freshmeat
that they should bear direct relevance to OpenSource/GNU/Linux/UNIX.
I don't see any problems with setting up a different announcement forum for those
applications though---something like windows.freshmeat.net---that way I don't have
to see them. I come here for linux applications and announcements, not windows.
My $0.02

Is Freshmeat about UNIX or is it about free software?
IMHO, freshmeat should be about free software. Coincidentally, most free software is written using the UNIX system call interface, and using languages common to UNIX platforms.

But what is wrong with free software on Windows? If the software isn't any good, it shouldn't be on fm anyway. If it *is* good and the software is free, it's possible to port the software to Linux. And someone will. This benefits Linux and free software more than it benefits commercial operating systems.

Porting free UNIX software to Windows can also benefit Linux. When I began using free software it was Emacs and LaTeX on MS-DOS, because I needed that for university work. This way, I discovered the "coolness" of free software and began using Linux in stead of DOS. If the Win32 GIMP port is ready, this will certainly attract some more Windows users to Linux.

Any good free software package will benefit the open source movement as a whole. That's why any good quality free software should be on freshmeat.

I still have doubts about commercial software for Linux, though. IMHO, commercial software for Linux should be on freshmeat as long as there isn't a better free replacement.
I other words, only the commercial software we really 'need' should be included.

Maarten

IMHO
In the GNU spirit of freedom, I say _YES_. Let them in.

I've never seen any kind of mission statement, or statement of intent for freshmeat, as long as I can remember visiting this site. It's always seemed to me to be a repository for software announcements. Nothing exclusionary in that. The appindex has options for commercially licensed software, so I never got the impression that they would be left out. (Although, I never got the impression that they cared enough to post here...)

Another freshmeat reader suggested that we ask the freshmeat maintainers what freshmeat is about. Aren't the freshmeat crew giving us what we want? Is our focus to ask what we are to be given, or to tell the maintainers what we'd like? And how can you support open source, and then restrict how this site is used? I believe that such arbitrary restrictions would be contrary to the freedoms that open source is supposed to insure.

And, listening to those who don't want to see commercial software or software that isn't available for their OS, why not go for a bit of dynamic content. Have a field of checkboxes in appindex submissions that indicate what OS the submitted software runs on. If you don't want to filter that on a per member basis, then perhaps a set of links in the upper right hand corner of the page that are OS specific (that is, a link for each OS that would display only software for that OS). Those who harbor deep resentment for any given OS can bookmark their own favorite OS specific area of the site.

GPL software on WIndows fine with me
For years what I really wanted was a Unix I could afford on hardware I could afford. DJ Delorie's port of the GNU compiler and tools (DJGPP) to DOS protected mode was just the solution for many years. Now I mostly run Linux, the GNU compilers and tools, etc. I wrote a number of programs w/ DJGPP and am still interested in it and still occassionally use it. I think it and similar packages have a place on freshmeat. I found a bug in the I/O library, had source to edit and fix. That's Open Source for me.

win32 freeware
I wouldn't mind gpl win32 apps on freshmeat proper IF they were ports/variants of *nix apps, then, as indicated by others, it would only entail an added comment and/or download link, as needed.
As for win32-only apps. No. Those would be better posted to
a win32-specific freshmeat sister site. A possible alternative
would be to allow for configurable display. I don't wish to
wade thru a bunch of useless win32-only apps to get to the items
of real interest...the linux stuff.

There is a lot of software out there. It will make fm unwieldy and
much slower to load up for many if you start sticking extraneous
win32 apps on it as well as everything else.

Big moral dillema for me
My program could probably be made to compile on windows with a few hours of work. I hate windows and don't want to provide microsoft with more apps for their closed source operating system, but at the same time, i want to be able to provide my software to a much larger audience. As another twist, I don't want to develop and support windows software - i would want the software to be primarily for UNIX, which may not be easy if all the users used windows.

What do you think? Mail me your comments at aaronl@vitelus.com.

news for developers or users
If I were a developer, I would prefer to see any Open Source apps announced here, regardless OS or platform they are written for. If the program is good, I can get the code and port it to my preferred OS.

On the other side, although I am a Linux user, I must use Win* in computer classes, for developing large Web sites, in work, etc. If I buy or use illegal windows copy, I want use my favorite GNU programs for it to feel at home. It was very nice when I installed vim, mc and all GNU stuff from DJGPP, and could fire up bash and use it as if it were linux.

So, I would like to see on freshmeat news on every Open Source program, and know whether it runs on windows/BSD/Be/Mac. This is freedom - to choose the OS, as we choose one from many Linux distros. But another freedom is needed - to choose *not* to see something, to filter commercial or windows apps out of "My Freshmeat", as I can do it on Slashdot.

There is an alternative - to use linux.tucows.com a.k.a. LinuxBerg, and there find any Commercial/Shareware/Freeware/OpenSource apps. There are no limitations on licenses, quality, platform nor OS. But I prefer freshmeat for its news interface and _almost_ Open Source orientation.

Windows - why not?
I'm definatly not a fan of windows, but at work and with friends and so forth I'm forced to deal with windows. the only think is, you'd need to mark very clearly which OS(es) each program runs on, and preferably have different pages for different OSes, the changelog doesn't matter as much as long as their clearly marked, but you'd need the appindex sorted well, and the find feature would need to be able to search by OS. but hey, if you're up for making the changes so everything can be found easily still then go for it.. I know if it's all mish-mashed together then unfortunatly this site wont be very usefull for me anymore..

Freshmeat for windows?
I support adding opensource windows applications to the ranks of freshmeat. I think it that windows is part of the computing world, and those opensource developers stuck in a windows world should be allowed to post here. Just my 2 cents

Operating Systems Considered Harmful
After reading 28 comments it's hard to add something, but I'll try. Do you really see the difference between Linux and Windows? Wow, guys, you are _GEEKS_! Put your heads up, we are talking about software. What is software? "Any software which is not free, sucks" explains Raymond. Do trust him.

Is "open source" software about its license? Phew, too little, as for me. It's about conformance to _official_ standards, such as POSIX. It's criteria to assess software. If it's written for idiosyncratic stuff like "MFC", "OCX" and boring stuff like that - let it rest in peace. If it uses common (==open) standards, compiles with standard-compliant compilers (and not different toyish msvc++) - it's just _software_ and should be here - just because it will run on any OS, just because Operating Systems Considered Harmful. Rant off, folks. Merry Christmas!

Cross-platform software
I think that it's important that the majority of software on Freshmeat be cross-platform software, otherwise the signal-to-noise ratio drops for *all* operating systems. Software that happens to compile on Windows (or *BSD, or Linux, or QNX ...) doesn't upset this ratio, but locked-into-one-OS software does.

I agree that this could be used to help co-opt the world of Windows, but the various MS OS'es already have software repository sites that software authors can post their submissions to. Let's not mess with the one decent cross-platform show-me-the-source site that we have ;-)

The point of the editorial
Summarizing the previous comments I have to state that the whole point of the editorial has been missed by most of the readers posting comments. The editorial deals with the sense or non-sense of Open Source Software for Windows, and not if it's a Good Thing(tm) to add Open Source Software solely usable in Windows to freshmeat's application index. As Jeff's comment shows, we're not intending to feature Windows software, and even if we were, the newly added content would be clearly separated from the current content.

I'm looking forward to reading comments about the actual issue the editorial is all about :)

PS: These are no forward looking statements.

using information repositories as a tool to open users to free software
I do believe that this site has been one of the greatest resources for developers of free software.

However, I do feel that this may not be the best time to try and attempt to pull the windows world into the free software world.

Unfortunately, the windows world has great deal more of individuals that will pick software merely because it is at no cost, not because it is free.

I feel that we would have more of an edge if you were to choose to wait an additional 24 months, as the open window mangers (and other gui software) has more of a chance to mature, thereby offering more of an opportunity for proprietary users to "get" the philosophy.

That said, the very beginnings of a shift in fundamental thinking in the commercial os world *is* starting, primarily in the GUI sector.

Perhaps the best method to approach things for the time being is add a "ported to proprietary systems" flag?

Regardless, scoop and fm family, I have trust in you that you will make the best long term decision.

All platforms are good
I use Windows NT and Linux while my parents use Windows 95. Since they have the only Internet account in the house, I must go through a proxy server set up on my parents' machine. I was thinking, "You know, it can't be too hard to find a decent free proxy server for Windows." However, I went to Tucows.com, Winfiles.com, Stroud.com and still could not find a decent proxy server. I ended up using the Proxy+ demo (only two users at a time) since it actually worked.

While I'm playing around in Linux, Freshmeat.net is a godsend. It categorizes almost all of the free software out there in a very organized index.

What I'm trying to say is that a page that listed free Windows software (be it a separate category, windows.freshmeat.net, or a whole new page) would be very useful and save many man-hours for home users and system administrators across the world.

Chad

Free Windows software is splendid.

I consult to companies that use about 100% Windows on the desktop. I
go to their offices to gather requirements, develop applications at my office,
then return to the client's location to deliver, demo, and debug. Development
tools that can be freely carried around without major licensing complications
are a blessing to me. I am now using various varieties of open source and
free software for Windows just about 100%. Python, GNAT Ada, and Perl are
my favorites, and I have also recommended gcc for DOS and Windows. By
spreading the fruits of these through corporate America, I am like Johhny
Appleseed of open source software. Some clients don't care how I solve
their problems. but others are impressed that I find the open source
software to be of quality that I am willing to use myself and recommend
as superior.

I rarely see any Linux in the offices of my clients, and I don't use it myself,
either. I would like to, but a key to getting Linux into use in more companies
may be availability of multi-platform applications and development tools, like
the ones I mention above. So I advise that you promote software that runs
on Windows and whatever else you want to advance, and I point out the
importance of available binaries, especially for Windows, if you want to reach
either non-developers.

Win32 needs open source repository
Being both a win32 and linux user, I can attest that nothing exists out there for windows users to find good quality code to study, learn from, and use. Most of the MFC code I've ever looked at was from linux programmers who also ported their programs to windows.

If you've ever browsed winfiles, or any of the other shareware repositories, it's almost sickening to see how capitolistic their sites are. There are always links to "Buy THIS!" and "Register THIS!", etc. If freshmeat were to offer publicity for windows open-source projects, it would 1. help further the movement of getting open source further onto windows, 2. help students and others learn how to program easier, just as they already do on GPL'd platforms, and 3. keep up the habit of showing company X that open source is a growing movement, and that the user community would really appreciate for them to open up some of their specs/code. Once it's open for windows, it's not hard to get it working (after some porting) on un*x.

Just my $0.02

A solution to this?
I think that the best thing to do would be to host/get started a sister site, devoted to open source Windows applications. See I speak for myself, and for others I'm sure when I say that I like freshmeat as a purely *nix site. Thanks to freshmeat, I can easily find any software I need that exists for Linux. I'd rather not have that convoluted with windows programs, although I think there should be a repository for open-source windows programs. So what do you think?

open source windows Now WAIT!
Reading this story, I started thinking about all those "broken" freeware programs I had found. If they were open source they could certainly be fixed and patches released by its users. Windows would be more stable and compatable (yes win98/2000 will not install/run on some older systems) if its users had access to its source. The world would be a better place for windows users.

But hold on, why did I switch to linux? 1) FREE .. 2) Stability .. 3) GPL which allows me to learn from others. If these were the case of Windows to the extent that linux is I would not have switched to linux and nor would have many other users in the past year. Microsofts lack of users first ideals has lead the push of the open-source community to its ever increasing userbase and the huge array of software to entise even more users. After all die hard Windows only software co's are even switching to *nix software.

So lets give Microsoft the credit it desirves, 3 cheers for Microsoft, they helped get opensource where it is today.

Freshmeat already too cluttered
I find myself visiting Freshmeat less and less often, because the number of submissions is increasing, while the number of submissions I am interested in has not. Adding Windows programs to the mix would make it even worse. If you want to add windows submissions, make it a separate site.

Here are my other suggestions to improve the site:

1. Have a slashdot-like filter for program "open-ness". For example, LGPL would be level 4, GPL level 3, free-restricted would be level 2, demos level 1 and commercial level 0. Then we could set the filter to 3 and not have to worry about all the commercial stuff and "free demo" that probably 90% of us are tired of seeing here.

2. Allow a button on each submission, that when pressed, will not show any future submissions of that software package. There are many submissions here that I am not and will never be interested in. If I only had to see them once, it would make this site a lot more pleasant.

Time to throw oneself at a fork, methinks.

All nice and well, OpenSource is not a platform-related thing, at least it shouldn't be. The Windows world also deserves its fair share of OSS-edness, and it's all too natural it should get it, it's made out of people, just like any OS userbase there is.

People write software, ergo some of it is going to be OSS licenced in some way or another. I don't see a thing being wrong or even surprising about that, whatever platform it be for. The operating system itself isn't going to become a better place over it - if the core is rotten, the core is going to remain rotten, unless the platform itself is exposed to a major "radicalization".

Being a sort of a UNIX convert for the past several years, I, like many others, like to come to freshmeat to see what's the happening about in this realm, and I like to have something to turn to that I know will most probably present me with a whole lot of new "meat" of my interest on the frontpage cover, and will remain consistant throughout my stay there.

It's definitely not my thing to tell, but suggest I can, and there it goes: if you freshmeat people ever get in the position to have to decide on something like the issue in question, you should have to consider your own consistency as a primary issue. In my view, either focusing on OSS software and throwing out the proprietary stuff, or focusing on UNIX related software and leaving Windows alone would do freshmeat no harm. All of the possibilities that other kind people suggested (colour-coding, forked meat with a frontpage, etc.) could be viable as well, but would do little for freshmeat's consistency and therefore its renome as an OSS and/or UNIX related site.

Whatever you do in the next 24 hours, I hope it's consistant. :-)

Cheers,

Grega

Freshmeat would be a good source for people forced to use windows.
I have to use windows at work. Consequently, I sometimes create somewhat useful utilities for windows that I don't release because there is no place to put open-source style windows software. If I release something, I fear getting hundreds of emails concerning things completely unreleated to my utility i.e. "HELP! I CAN'T INSTALL YOUR SOFTWARE BECAUSE OUTLOOK EXPRESS KEEPS CRASHING MY COMPUT...."

Additionally, in the spirit of open source all free software is of interest to the linux developer. Remember, we have the freedom to port the software to linux.

MyFreshmeat
As said above, do something like "MyFreshmeat" and you can fit everyones wishes with no trouble.

The basic concept of Freshmeat

I think the `problem' here is defining what Freshmeat really is about. Is it about software? Open sourced software? Linux? Open-sourced Linux software? I think the Freshmeat crew should sit down and think what was their original intention when they started it all. But that doesn't mean the profile can't change -- if you want to include Windows software as well, go ahead.

Personally, I `don't mind' free Windows software appearing at Freshmeat, although splitting it up in separate sections might be an idea. Remember that free software isn't something that just `happens' -- a number of programs have to be created and refined. When Richard Stallman and the rest of the FSF people started their task, I assume they created free software on a non-free platform. Gradually, they could start making more and more central parts of the system (like gcc), before we eventually end up where we are today, when you can run a system based off only GPL software (except the BIOS in your PC... for now). I think, if Windows is ever to become free, we should help the free software developers out. One of the ways might well be Freshmeat, which already has helped out hundreds (if not thousands) of other free software developers (including me).

/* Steinar */

Whether Free/Libre software for a non-Free/Libre OS?
I'd support posting notices of Win32 software, if it was free,
and can be compiled with free tools, uses free .Libs and
works on other platforms, like Linux/BSD, if it cant meet
these standards, then let TuCows list it.

Free software that can be built on an out of the box
win9x/NTx/W2K machine is a start. But first all the tools
needed to build a program need to be ported. Most of them
are already available for Win32, not so many for other platforms.
I'd like to see the free software movement start migrating to other
platforms.

Mostly GPL programs
I hope I get this right ... it all started w/someone wondering what would happen if there were more Open Source software for windows paltforms.
Now it has deviated all the attetion to what freshmeat is ... so I guess (and this is MY guess) that the point is being missed.
I believe, and I will make a brief comment on freshmeat, that it is just a place to find new sofware. What you can notice is that most of it is open source and for linux, well ... so what ?
Freshmeat is just a place to find software, it doesnt makes a difference for which platform was written (I hope).
Now going back to the Win world, every piece of software that was written to run on win platforms if either commercial or shareware. There are only a FEW things that are free.
Why is that ? I really dont know, and taking a wild guess, it could be because of the ideology behind win and its patches. I guess that most of the software programmers for the win environment think that if they had to pay for, lets say, borland C/C++ why shouldnt people pay for what they made ?
So basically, like the original poster (sorry I cant remember your name now. (-; said in the first place, if there were a GOOD development environment, that was free, maybe developers would start writing free software for win.
Theres another thing, after talking to many Mic. Cert. Eng. *grin* they dont even know anything about GNU, or the FSF ... and when I tell them about it they just cant believe it, and they even think that thats dumb.
So, they way i see it (and to summarize), freshmeat is an internet site wher you can "advertise" your software.
And yes, if there were more free software for the win world it could even be acceptable for me (-;. PS: please excuse my poor use of english.

Freshmeat & Windows Software
I have a couple of opinions on this...
There should be a place where Free and Open source Windows programs are distributed, but Freshmeat should not be that place. When most of us think of Freshmeat we think Linux and GNU not Micro$oft. I also believe that the only way that Microsoft's monopoly can be stopped is to write an OS or some form of emulator to run MS Software which the only way that will get done is if more people learn MS code... My point is that open source Windows programs are a good thing.

I apologize to Billy Worbucks for wanting him to fall... but this is what i feel should happen.

Just my opinion...
now, what freshmeat is or isn't I am not sure... but i personally do not want to start seeing 10,000 crappy VisualBasic programs pop up on here. I personally would like to think of freshmeat as a collecection of software that i can actually find usefull... preferably under the GPL or similar licence, and in a language that is easily ported... I think that freshmeat should remain a software listing of unix utilities and programs, and possibly other things such as BeOS apps... but only if the source is avaliable. I find no use in closed source, or extreamly limited source applications.... i like my free beer and free speach.

open sourced windows software?
My personal feeling is that Windows is already well established so with that said why does Freshmeat even need to consider promoting opensourced windows software? Freshmeat has always been an exellent source of software for Linux and BSD (free,commercial, opensourced, closed etc) so why on earth should that change now? It's the Linux and BSD's of the world that need the most help and exposure. Windows is already well known, Windows already has sites for free windows software, so why should Freshmeat even consider this as a option at all?

Promoting open sourced Windows software never put Freshmeat on the map to begin with. Why not expand services for the Linux and BSD communities and leave the Windows people to tend to their own affairs? This is where you can do the most good. I am certain that gnu.org doesnt have opensourced win32 software, or none that I've seen. Why does Freshmeat need to do this? I find this whole thing completely and utterly annoying to begin with. Linux and BSD needs all the help they can get. Why promote something that doesnt need promoting? Cant we have a few web sites that doesnt have any Windows related material on it? Why is this too much to ask?

Is free software good for Windows?
I just don't care. The only thing important is: Is free software good for users?

Another thing, free software is a model. Mr. Stallman may find it the best one. However, users will always stay the judges. Sometimes, free software fits and others, it doesn't.

It is to be compared to a company, in the free software model, almost everyone is a shareholder. In the commercial software model, less people are shareholders. Both are acceptable, why should you consider a hardware developper is more justified to live from its work compare to a software developper? In both cases, these guys had invested time and knowledge to develop something they hope is profitable to the community. In the case of free software, the developper may thinks it's better to share its work openely with everyone in order to have it evolves with the free help of the community. In the case of commercial software, the developper may prefer to keep control on the product and like to sell it for living and concentrate on its product with the same goal in mind: Keep its users happy!

The problems arose when someone thinks its way of life is the best and decide to build a religion on it. This kind of religious wars may prevent Linux to penetrate some markets were there is a fit for the product, but not for the model.

When I come by a one-size-fit-all clothes store, I am almost sure I won't find anything that will really fit.

My comments on three issues
Well, I ended up being out of the house much of the day, so my
comments are coming late. Hopefully, that will be better than never.
First, let me comment on the actual topic of the editorial. :)

Is Free Software for Windows a Good Thing(TM)?

I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand, I tend to think of the work put into Windows free
software projects as wasted effort that could be put to better use
helping to improve completely free systems, for two reasons: First, I
think of it as enabling people in their unhealthy habits; we should be
moving people to GNU/Linux or *BSD, not encouraging their use of
proprietary platforms by giving them better software to run on them.
Secondly, no matter how much care and craft you put into your code,
Windows is still going to blue screen or crash with a GPF in the
middle of running it. You're just cooking a gourmet meal and serving
it as the garnish for a plate full of crap.

On the other hand, I see it filling an advocacy role. I remember
reading someone's argument some time ago (on slashdot, I believe) that
there were three ways people could be moved from Windows to one of the
free OSes. The first was to take them out in the middle of the pond
and throw them out of the boat, then watch them sink more often than
they swam. The second was to not force them into using the
new-to-them system full time with no preparation, but to give them a
dual-boot machine so they could have time to experiment with the new
system while using the old to do their work. The problem with this is
that people find fewer and fewer reasons to ever reboot into the new
system.

The third way was interesting and under-utilized: give them the same
tools under Windows that they'll be using under their new OS. That
way, they get to learn the applications while remaining in the
familiar surroundings instead of trying to deal with everything all at
once. Let the Windows user learn to use the GIMP, bash, and AbiWord
without leaving Windows, and she'll be that much more at ease when she
switches over.

This is actually what I did myself. Before I installed Linux for the
first time, I was already using the NT port of Emacs to do most of my
work. After I started using Linux, I dual-booted for awhile because I
still needed to get work done and wasn't yet comfortable enough with
*NIX to use it full time (and back then, you couldn't just pick up a preinstalled machine with
everything preconfigured and working). I even switched from using
Pegasus Mail as my MUA to using VM (an Emacs mail client) under both
platforms, with my mail folders stored on the vfat partition and
symlinked to their appropriate places on the ext2 side.

So, I'm a prime example of the fact that Windows versions of *NIX tools
can help people make the transition to a reasonable platform.

I'm not a coder, so I have to ask: how much harder is it to write your
program to work on multiple platforms instead of just one? Who wants
to write an editorial on cross-platform development and how to write
easily portable code? :)

freshmeat identity crisis

As to what freshmeat is and should be:

It's an interesting question because I think we all know what it is,
but as soon as we start putting it into words or trying to make
practical decisions related to our understanding of it, it starts
slipping through our fingers. Is it a Linux site? No, there's plenty
of *BSD software on it. Is it a Free Software site? No, we have
plenty of commercial software here. (Though personally, I'm one of
those not interested in such things, and would rather see freshmeat
set up more like Debian, with the software separated and organized
according to its freeness. More about that below.) Is it a place for
linking to and talking about software that's of interest to people in
our community? (We've had requests that we carry palmos software
since so many of our readers have Pilots growing on their hips.)

Perhaps it's enough to look at it as "The software index for the
slashdot generation", a cool code place with strong UNIX and Free
Software tendencies.

freshmeat feature requests

Finally, I feel the need to say just a word about all the suggestions
regarding "My freshmeat" and such.

I spent a few days at thebazaar this week, and I remember Rob Malda telling
someone, "Whatever suggestion you have regarding moderation or karma
on slashdot, it's already been submitted to me by a dozen other
people, and I've thought of ten other ways of implementing it myself."

You just have to be patient; everything you've said here has been
suggested in the past and considered for the todo list. No need to
bug scoop as though he hasn't already thought about it.

P.S.: To Ron who said:

I am certain that gnu.org doesnt have opensourced win32 software, or
none that I've seen.

See http://www.gnu.org/order/windows.html

:-)

Bad things

The idea of Open Source software, made for Windows only (as opposed to Windows ports of Open Source software, made for Unix/Linux) contraicts the culture of Windows programmers, their ability to work in open environment, and the nature of Windows that remains to be a "sabotaged" environment, created and designed to advance the goals of one company by excluding all others. This nature of Windows does not allow to create high-quality (both high performance, reliability and interoperability) software that Open Source is all about, and there is no point aiming for being the third best after some ugly hack from Microsoft and some another ugly hack from its "strategic partner".
While I think that porting Open Source software to Windows is a waste of time and source comprehensibility, creating Open Source software for Windows is plain counter-productive (and IMHO morally wrong).
Last time I have checked, freshmeat announced only software that can run on Linux. I will prefeer it remaining the same way. This criteria works well for Linux users, and mostly is fine for users of other Unices because if something runs on Linux, it most likely runs on (or can run on, or at least is of some relevance for) all other Unices. If something runs on Windows, there are good chances that it's of absolutely no interest for users of Linux or any other Unices. If someone is going to make a site that announces Open Source (or any other) software for Windows, he better should do it as far from here as possible -- IMNSHO MSN is the most natural place for that.

Windows software on GNU site (To: jeff)
All software, mentioned at GNU site is ported Unix software, and -- surprise -- already announced on freshmeat. FSF is the last place where you should look for advocacy of software that requires Windows to run.

Is Free Windows Software Good? It All Depends.
I've been a beneficiary of all that Freshmeat has to offer probably since the first week the site was up -- It's one of the first things I do when I go and sit down in front of the console at work every day. What am I looking for when I type in the URL or click on the bookmark? Well, it's not so much the latest greatest Linux software that I can find for free -- although that is definitely an added bonus. I come here to find programs to make my life easier -- I come here to find software that is going to help me to learn as much as I can. It just so happens that during that quest I end up seeing all these programs written by talented and generous (and/or ego-bloated) individuals who for various reasons have chosen to make them available to the general public, usually for free. Countless times I have downloaded/installed software that I'd never dreamed existed or thought there was a need for, only to find that it makes my job much easier and my life in front of a computer much more enjoyable throughout the day.

I don't sit in front of a *nix machine all day - Due to my job I'm torn between *nix, NT and Win9x. I think if I were to see a great influx of software written for Windows show up on this site while I was specifically in search of a *nix solution, I'd probably be pretty miffed for the short term -- But then I'd find what I was looking for and most likely at a later time and come back and try some of that free Windows software.

Granted, there are places like Tucows where you can get a tremendous amount of freeware/shareware Windows software, but in general that type of software is of such a mixed variety. If free Windows software was going to be made available via Freshmeat, I would want that software to have some relation to *nix -- For example, look at MySQL -- really nice database software that exists for *nix _AND_ Windows.

I want software that I can run on both platforms that facilitates the integration of our Windows/*nix OS' and numerous hardware platforms. If the Freshmeat staff and some talented contributors are willing to provide that, I'd be ecstatic! If the software has no relation at all to BSD/Linux/etc or is not going to help the new crop of NT-only system/network administrators to do their jobs better by encouraging *nix education and integration, then I'm not for it.

No thanks
(1) There is no such thing as open source software for Windows.
You do not have the source code to the C library, Win32 API,
etc. Windows software is not free.

(2) In an ideal world, nobody would write software for Windows.
The O/S is fundamentally flawed. Writing software for it only
encourages the b.....ds (Microsoft et al).

(3) There are plenty of sites I can go to if I want software for Windows. Keep it off Freshmeat please.

YES: Posting Open Source Windows Apps Can Only Help

There are two reasons why doing this will benefit Open Source and, ultimately, Linux (*BSDs too ;):

Open Source

Open Source is not platform-dependent. It's about the application. Running GIMP on Windows or Linux does not make GIMP any less Open. GIMP is governed under a license, not an operating system. Get GIMP into these people's hands and let them know that high-quality, free software exists. Also tell them
that there's a very supportive community behind it all. Get them to become comfortable with Open Source applications. Remember, it's the applications they use directly, not the operating system. After all,
Windows runs on top of DOS, yet nobody remembers DOS these days.

Just imagine if more Open Source programs (which seem to be very Linux-centric at the moment) were ported to Windows and inspired Windows coders to Open their code. I bet the glDoom incident probably wouldn't have happened. Everyone deserves an opportunity. That's what Open Source is about - Freedom. You can not promote Open Source if you deny others the same rights.

Linux / *BSD

Now it's a few months later. Open Source apps have caught up to commercial ones in terms of features (but, of course, it's more stable too). And by now you've switched the majority of your friends to using Open Source apps (which also happen to run everywhere). So,
when that next Windows upgrade comes around for $100, you can tell them that it's time to upgrade. Yes, that's right, upgrade. Upgrade to a free OS that's has been running all the applications they've are using.

On a side note: Freshmeat provides links to software. Not Linux. Not FreeBSD. Not Java. Not Open Source. This is the next logical step.

'SELLOUT' eq 'FRESHMEAT' ?????????
If I start seeing MICROSOFT WINDOWS software on Freshmeat, this site has lost its edge.

Someone else will fill the spot.

I have a feeling that ANDOVER.NET is trying to increase its pages/day by including Microsoft Windows software.

I apprecate Open-Source software, but ONLY on an Open-Source operating system such as Linux or BSD. I visit Freshmeat to find software relevant to my world which is basically Linux. I don't want to waiste time filtering Windows applications.

PLEASE DON'T SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: 'SELLOUT' eq 'FRESHMEAT'
Let me repeat (as mentioned in 3 separate comments now): It is not our intention to add Windows software to freshmeat. I have no idea why this is still the focus of the comments here.

As far as 'Andover.Net trying to increase its pages/day by including Microsoft Windows software' goes: why would Andover plan on duplicating efforts? Andover.Net already has a (well visited btw.) Windows Software collection available at DaveCentral.

Now please refrain from posting comments regarding the purpose of freshmeat and how silly it would be to add Windows software to our application index. It's not planned. It's not intended. Thank you.

IEW ... windows on freshmeat ?
ehhh ... i was scared when i see this highlight...

i think gpled windows software is cool but not on freskmeat make a new site for it like www.deadmeat.net or something but not on freshmeat i am going to freshmeat because i can find all new *nix software there.. and that is great this site is great make a section for windows software that would be cool but not mixed with *nix..

Categorization of freshmeat.net
I rather like the idea of multiple freshmeat.net sites, where said classification would be something like posix.freshmeat.net for unixen, linux.freshmeat.net (would include all posix software that's geared for linux), bsd.freshmeat.net (for BSD), windows.freshmeat.net (for windows), etc. This would also allow clearer seperation for languages, as well, so we might have perl.freshmeat.net and java.freshmeat.net as well.

It all comes down to how you view freshmeat....
Freshmeat is an open source project. It makes sense to consider it one.

The purpose of open source projects is to "scratch the itch". Freshmeat now soothes my itches, which I can categorize as:

I want a centralized place that indexes free software
I want to be able to easily leave feedback for others to see, in the case that it is necessary to comment on this software
I would like to be able to link my own software to this index in order to increase it's utility

There are of course plenty of these sites now, but freshmeat was the first, and I'm certain it has the largest user base. Besides, I don't want to take the time to learn and accustom myself to other systems. Freshmeat scratches the itch just fine, if you overscratch, it starts to hurt. :)

If freshmeat wants to know if it should expand it's scope, it has to ask itself if it's actually scratching more itches by doing this.

If any free software maintainer is asked to port their software to Windows, they would usually do their best, especially if there was a demand. The idea is not to make moral judgements about what platforms you're promoting, but to in fact aid the community. Increasing utility enhances the value of your software.

Identify the itch: I want to find free software on other Operating Systems. Is this an itch worth scratching? Helping Windows users is certainly noble, but on the other hand, are they really lacking?

We shouldn't be pitying them for using Windows because it doesn't have free software, but we should in fact be pitying them because they USE Windows. There's no reason to say "poor Windows user, that system has no support whatsoever :(". LIE. Microsoft slit a lot of throats and burned a lot of bridges to make Windows a platform of highest ubiquity. It is the most well supported platform holding the largest mindshare of software developers.

They don't need freshmeat. They don't need this free software resource. Let Microsoft fulfill the rest of their needs. They have already asked Microsoft to fulfill their OS needs.

Conversely, supporting Windows on freshmeat could have major effects on the system itself. It would certainly annoy many freshmeat users, since they are no longer the specific and sole target of the site anymore. It would not sit well with me, personally.

Inversely, does freshmeat simply want one target? That isn't good for freshmeat, because it becomes obsolete if that one single target disappears. But do you worry about the Linux community disappearing? I wouldn't.

To throw my vote in the pile, if anyone is asking, freshmeat is fine the way it is. The value it would be adding to itself by increasing Windows support is not one worth pursuing, for the reasons I've stated above. This would help freshmeat more than it would help the community that helped build it, in my opinion.

If freshmeat feels that they have to take that route, then by all means. On the same token, you ASKED us what we thought, so this isn't my fault. :)

Is Free Software for Windows Good?
I think so, but it MUST be Open source.

re: Is Free Software for Windows Good?
After carefully reading Jeff's editorial, I do not believe he is asking if Windows software is any good, but rather if it is a -good thing-. Is it about commercial OS's? That is part of the issue, but not the issue itself. By and large, it is about people. What could be wrong about offering freedom of choice to the individuals who use a closed OS, some of which do not realize they have a choice.

While it may not be up to the Linux community to be the pioneers of Open Source applications for Windows, who better than the Linux Community. We are the proof that it works, and it is good. The least it could do is allow Windows users the chance to sample the computing world we find so wonderful. I can see many possibilities in its future. Why would a Windows user pay for an application that in its rush to get the new product on the shelf, is full of bugs, features they may never use or lacks the features they need, when they could obtain, under GNU/GPL, a product for free that may be more stable and give them the opportunity to be a part it's development? Could it be possible that in the future of Windows Open Source software, commercial developers feel compelled to create better software in order to justify the expense? That in itself would be a good thing.

Ask any business what their competition could do to hurt them the most. Set up a location nearby and offer better products for less money, and better customer support. Those things are why I chose to switch to Linux in the first place! I find the majority of the Linux community to be people who are very supportive of each other. I have never regretted the switch, and each day I find another reason to be proud to belong to such a wonderful group. The future offers possibilities for the computer users of the world. One thing that is great, is all of us can determine which direction it goes. I do not see how Open Source software for Windows could hurt the Linux community, I do see benefits for -people-, regardless of OS.

A bad idea.... VERY bad.
I really don't like this idea, for MANY reasons.

1. How can you even really have free software when the development tools that are needed (i.e. MFC and VC++) are closed?

2. Are you sure that there are no license gotchas associated with VC++/MFC that make the GPL invalid?

3. Are Windows developers really ready for GPL? Or will we be treated to Windows developers incorporating GPL code into their own closed binaries because they thought GPL=public domain?

4. Ports to another system tend to look crappy. This may create the impression that OSS is crappy in the minds of Windows users, and make OSS on Windows a flop. Microsoft may exploit this in it's FUD.

5. I thought we wanted to get Windows developers writing for OSS operating systems, NOT OSS developers writing for closed operating systems!!!! This model could REDUCE the amount of OSS software for OSS systems. Rmember, ATTRACTING DEVELOPERS TO WRITE FOR AN OS IS *THE* KEY TO SUCCESS!!

6. Microsoft is known for anti-choice business practices. Do we really want to support a company that puts out stuff like the Mindcraft Benchmarketing, the Halloween Documents and the Linux FUD page?

7. I don't think we want to soften the financial pain associated with chosing a non-free operating system like MS Windows.

8. This hybrid closed OS + OSS application model gives MS an embrace-extend opportunity into OSS that we DON'T want.

9. Initially the amount of free software will be small compared to shareware, nagware, etc. This small amount may be used as part of a FUD campaign to discredit the OSS development model.

10. Currently free (beer) software on Windows is free because the quality is too low to sell. OSS software could be tarred by the same brush very easily.OSS software is fighting an image of 'a collection of midnight hacks'. The last thing we need is to reinforce that.

11. OSS needs killer apps that are exclusive to OSS operating systems. The last thing we want is 'oh that's available for Windows too, so let's just keep running Windows'.

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is the worst thing that could be done to the OSS community.

poll?
Why not do a poll to see if Windows opensource would be good.
Or ask CmdrTaco do one on Slashdot. One IP should have only
1 vote, so the poll doesn't get abused (it happened). I find
the discussion rather controversial, some people have been
off topic etc. Don't *you* like to vote? I do. Ok, I hope this isn't
too off-topic and if it is, sorry.

unix.freshmeat.net, win.freshmeat.net *and* java.freshmeat.net
I'd like to see multiple freshmeats too - with the addition of java.freshmeat.net.

Open Source != Linux
As an author of a few open source projects for 32-bit windows platforms, it sometimes bugs me to see the "it ain't linux, so it must suck" attitude present in some posts. I firmly believe in free software, and so I ensure that my projects always compile using freely available tools -- they'll still compile in commercial tools as well, but the supplied makefiles are always written for the GCC ports (mingw32/cygwin). I would welcome the inclusion of non-linux software on Freshmeat, but it might make sense to make the selection configurable, ie. by platform, license, category and so on.

The compiler may not be free but it doesn't have to be.
I do not have a free compiler on the Win32 platform that comes with a useful IDE and handy libraries. However, I recently bought a computer magazine that had Delphi 3 on the cover CD. The accompanying license said that exes are not to be distributed. Fair enough - just distribute the source! Compilers are great tools that every system should have whether or not the user knows how to use them - I rarely compile on Linux with anything with more complex than "./configure", "make install" or simillar instructions direct from the Readme file.

Better display, several freshmeats
Freshmeat should at least include **all** software that is available with the source.
To have several servers, like:
- www.freshmeat.net for the merge of all the other servers:
- unix.freshmeat.net for all that is about Unix in general
- windows.freshmeat.net for all that is about Windows in general
- linux.freshmeat.net why not ? a sub-part of unix.freshmeat.net
- documentation.freshmeat.net for everything that isn't software (editorial, trainings, technical, ...)
- short.freshmeat.net to get only the sum ups of each day (like you do currently in the right part of the screen : just the title of the softwares) but for every kind of platform. For instance, if we do the previous division, there would be several columns, one for unix, with inside maybe in different colors the different flavours of unices, another for windows, another one for documentation,...
etc.

For Unix, you would issue an announce for each supported platform. Example : for cdrecord, you would post/display the same announce in the windows/unix/linux servers. (only one announce, but displayed several times).

And if the concept of several servers doesn't suit you, then record a profile via a cookie so that the user when he comes on freshmeat, get straightly what he wants.

By extending this idea, you could do a kind of "my_freshmeat.net", where the user could modify its profile via a form HTML page, and filter straightly on the server the software he wants/doesn't want to be displayed.

One more point : why do you display all software the same? I've myself been "trapped" several times, reading the short description, going to the page, finding the software very good, and then... arghhh it's not free! If you would display the black caption with a different color, according to the licence type, (green for GPL, red for commercial, grey for free is not commercial use...) the readability would be better. And it can be done quite easily with CSS.

Freshmeat is a great site, but the great number of posts each day makes it very hard to read. It still needs more structure to remain a very useful site, unless you decide to restrict it to only GPL software for Unix, which would not be a good thing...

Regards

Free software is always a good thing
I don't see the difference between Free software for MS Windows and Free software for Solaris, AIX or any other non-free OS.

The important thing is to educate Windows users in the meaning of "Free" -- libre not gratis. We need them to understand that Internet Explorer does not fit our definition of "Free".

So I'd say -- go for it. Include all the Free Software for Windows you can -- but make sure it is *only* free in the sense of open source. Python, Perl, Xpilot -- these are all fine. Eudora is not.

... oh, and I'd approve of the "My Freshmeat" thing, too.

My POV.
Well free software for DOS and Windows for every. Even Open source software. What really amuses me is that when you say "Open Source" people think of "Linux". Sure you have to pay for Windows, but you get support for it. Sure it may be closed source. As I see it, closed sourced is as good as open source. The makers have more control over closed source programs. I have used free software and expensive software and some times the free stuff is completely better than the $800 software and sometimes vice versa. So really people shouldn't really complain about free and non free, open and closed, becuase there are some good reasons behind the fact on why it's that way. If you don't want to pay for it you can get a program that is the freeware/open source sister, or if you don't mind feds knocking on your door at 3 am, you can just grab it from a warez site. =)

Win32 Open Source Software
I've seen many of you state that you would like to see listings of Win32-software if it is related to Linux/BSD/etc, i.e. is a port to Win32.

I would really like to see listings for free Win32 products, one of the reasons is that porting from Win32 to Linux is going to be much more easy if the Open Source movement reaches the Win32 OS.

Freshmeat should, IMHO, do as much as it can to promote Open Source software on all OSes. I spend quite a lot of time in front of a Win32-box at work, and would love to know about Open Source software to add to my toolkit. I also agree, however, to the points made about having "separate sites" (win32.freshmeat.net/unix.freshmeat.net).

Freeware/Free Software
Lots of you people need to figure out what the difference between freeware
and Free Software is. Those millions of "freeware sites" are obviously
something freshmeat needs to stay away from. But I have yet to see a popular
web site for Free windows software (when I say "Free" I mean "open source",
btw), and I think it'd be a great idea to have a windows.fm.net. Obviously
windows.fm.net wouldn't be over-loaded with crap software like all the
freeware sites are, because 1> there isn't as much Free windows software as
shareware/freeware and 2> Free software is usually of a higher quality than
freeware.
Oh. and Get rid of the steenking commercial software. :)
Chris

Open source for Windows is good
I think that the large mass of comments has generally gotten the message out to the freshmeat staff so I'll try no to be redundant of what was already said.

I am in support of open source windows programs being posted on freshmeat. I am also in support of freshmeat evolving to a site for finding open source, multiplatform software. I think they should let windows programs in, but at the same time shut out commercial unix software. So when I see a new version of Emacs posted on freshmeat, yes I would like a link to the windows version. Yes I would like to see the latest version of the Gimp port to windows posted on freshmeat. As for The next version of Excel, An obvious no. When a commercial ssh implementaion is released which is basically commercial software, no I don't want it posted.

Many of you are against Windows OSS in the first place, but I am all for it. Here are my arguments:

First of all, Windows is a poorly built, terribly mantained, and so on and so on, operating system. However, It is the operating system mareted for, (mis?)designed for, and used by average people.
Now consider the following

The average(windows) user never heard of:

GPL
POSIX
Linux, Unix (Open, Free, NET)BSD Hurd
RTFM
vi, emacs, pico

Many Open soure OS users, myself included, were once freware junkies
The biggest selling point for open source OSes are their price
Open source code on mainstream OSes will lead to an increase in mainstream awareness of the whole opensource movement

Secondly, many of us unfortunatly have to deal with commercial software. However, this is made easier because of software ported to windows from the unix world.

Thirdly, there are a lot of talented windows programmers out there. If they saw a piece of software such as the gimp for windows and found out they could contribute to it, some of them would. Those changes could benifit users of the gimp, or whatever piece of software it is, on other platforms as well. Isn't that what open source software is all about. Allowing everyone to contribute to create better software.

Fourthly, This isn't a new idea. Lynx, gcc, and emacs just to name a few have long been ported to the dos/windows envirorment. I personally first learned of GNU because of the dos port of GCC

Finally think about it like this. We wanted mainstream acceptance of OSS and this is our best shot at it. Linux will never be for the masses, nor any Unix like operating system. People just don't want to learn how to admin their systems. If we make windows OSS we auctually have a small chance of getting Gates to releasing some of his source code. Even if that dosen't happen if windows OSS catches on and an office suite is released under the GPL will Gates be able to compete with an enemy he can't buy out or bankrupt

Re: So Freshmeat is a Linux site?

> I thought Freshmeat was an "open-source" site.

I thought it was a Unix software site with an open source bias.

> Suppose someone posted an app that was of

> interest only to a user of a particular *BSD

*BSD being a Unix variant, that would be fine...

Regards,

Denny

Re: Why not?
That's completely true! I agree to a 100 percent!

Defending the four freedoms of the GPL on Windows
The article starts out well reminding people of what the four freedoms of the GPL are, but looses focus at the end with a "I don't like paying for software".

I like paying for software, ease of use, support and training. I like this, because by parting with some of my money I support the development team, the marketing team and so on - I keep them in business. I want to keep them in business, because my business depends on what they make.

Now, if my business stops depending upon further development, support, ease of use and training, I would like to be free. I would like to say no to upgrades. I would like to disengage from the product maker until I need them again.

A parallell: If my car needs service, I would like to pick the mechanic myself at any time I like. I would like spare parts to be available until I die if I'm not fed up with the old heap.

Proprietary vendors like Microsoft doesn't let me do that. I must upgrade regularly, otherwise my business documents will be impossible to exchange with others. Why can't Word2 read the document format of Word XP? Is it a law against that? It is a business strategi, but not a very nice one. I understand that it might be difficult incorporate special new features without substantial rewrites, but surely a simple letter...

This is what the four freedoms are about, as I see them. I get choose who the mechanic is at any time I like. If the software is in a lingo long forgotten it is more expensive to figure it out, but it is legal and it is possible. Nobody will come and call you, a tax paying citizen a pirate. A PIRATE - the rudeness of these people is beyond compare! I don't know which schools these people went to, but I for one will never send my children to such a dismal institution. A REAL pirate KILLS people, RAPES people, and STEAL their belongings afterwords. I've met boat refugees who have come up against real pirates several times on their way to safety, listened to their stories, and unsolicited copying is NOT piracy.

My business needs are such that I don't need a new office suite every year. Quite frankly, what I need is - you know - a thingy - that does that special thing which scratches that itch. That interoperability with my accountancy package, and that old printer with the really wide paper, which the original vendor doesn't support anymore because its chasing some new operating system with new printer models. There is nothing wrong with the old printer, its just not fashionable anymore. Maybe, just maybe, in a free software world, there might have been a mechanic.

Linux is just a kernel, so is the Hurd, they are means to the end called operating system, like the kernel in Microsoft's Windows. The difference is in the freedom, not the price. That copyrighted freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). While making money to live for, because the community around you understands your needs for food and shelter.

Should free software be built for Microsoft Windows or any other proprietary operating system? Personally, I will never, ever do that. I don't know how. If I did know how, I would still not have done that, but I wouldn't stop someone else from doing so either. I'm free to do what I like, and so are you. You don't need anyones permission. Well, perhaps except Microsoft's. They don't like free software, because they don't like freedom - your freedom. "Gates" says it all really - closed gates.

Re: Open Source for windows users

> Helping
> Windows users is certainly noble, but on
> the other hand, are they really
> lacking?
>
> We shouldn't be pitying them for using
> Windows because it doesn't have free
> software, but we should in fact be
> pitying them because they USE Windows.
> There's no reason to say "poor Windows
> user, that system has no support
> whatsoever :(". LIE. Microsoft slit a
> lot of throats and burned a lot of
> bridges to make Windows a platform of
> highest ubiquity. It is the most well
> supported platform holding the largest
> mindshare of software developers.
>
> They don't need freshmeat. They don't
> need this free software resource. Let
> Microsoft fulfill the rest of their
> needs. They have already asked Microsoft
> to fulfill their OS needs.

Anyone reading the posts on this discussion would think perople had never heard of hacking or indeed copying software.

Well wake up! There are lots of us coding-illiterate computer users who find compiling and running linux is just a tad more compluicated than we need, but we are quite happy to run (illegal) copies of windows OS on their system

We haven't ASKED microsoft for anything - on the contrary its more than no-one has offered us as easy to install and run OS that doesn't involve us having to understand the complexities of admin rights, kernel coding and binaries.
Yes, I use windows, but I also use firebird, thunderbird and openoffice - and believe me i scour the web for opensource alternatives for as much of the software as i can. But i want nice GUI interfaces and faqs and i dont want to have take a programming certificate just to run an app.

It would be really positive thing if sites like this was more open and recognised, unlike some its members, that not all windows users are slaves to the bill gates cult - rather - the linux-fetish is blighting the wider vision of GPL/open source culture with a myopic perpective that cant see that way to bring down the bill gates monopoly is many pronged

Open Source for all! Even us poor windows users

Is Free Software for Windows Good?
I really have no business commenting, but after reading every comment both good and bad i felt compelled. I think everyone is missing the point in all this. I am as green as they come, I am forced to run windows for now (freashmeat will change this i know), but mostly everyone including most of you came from the windows environment. You just dont go to the local radioshack and come back linux ready. For one reson or another you as a group needed something better than bill gates. To make a long story short, there are a lot of good windows people that have no idea about half this stuff . Yes they are fail in comparrison to most of you more familiar and expericed users. Dont forget you started at bottom knowing little or nothing and have found a great place to come for information ,new software, and some smart cookies.
Basically it boils down not linux vs windows us against you. It doesnt matter what system it is, I myself em looking for the best applications, software, stability,and hate being so tied by windows. I bet there are many more just like me. Dont shut the door that was left open for you when you needed something different and where just starting out. ty thats all jd

Re: My POV.

> Well free software for DOS and Windows

> for every. Even Open source software.

> What really amuses me is that when you

> say "Open Source" people think of

> "Linux". Sure you have to pay for

> Windows, but you get support for it.

> Sure it may be closed source. As I see

> it, closed sourced is as good as open

> source. The makers have more control

> over closed source programs. I have used

> free software and expensive software and

> some times the free stuff is completely

> better than the $800 software and

> sometimes vice versa. So really people

> shouldn't really complain about free and

> non free, open and closed, becuase there

> are some good reasons behind the fact on

> why it's that way. If you don't want to

> pay for it you can get a program that is

> the freeware/open source sister, or if

> you don't mind feds knocking on your

> door at 3 am, you can just grab it from

> a warez site. =)

You don't seem to understand what Free/Open source is all about. It is not about free as in cost, but Free as in FREEdom.

Re: A bad idea.... VERY bad.
I would have to second all of your points. I think it would be a good thing(tm) to have a site for Open/Free software for MS Windows instead of all the crap shareware, freeware sites, though we need to look at the possibilities of that. With OSS OSes, the core of the OS is Open for anyone to use and leverage fairly in their applications, while MS Windows is and always will be closed and proprietary. OSS software will always be at a disadvantage against closed source software from MS and their partners since they have the code and all API's and protocols. A lot of OSS software doesn't port as well to Win32 and if done half-a$$ed, could leave users not familiar with OSS
a bad taste in their mouth. It is not an easy choide since it could be a powerful way to advertise OSS and its benefits to users stuck in a proprietary world. And as you pointed out in point #5, we want developers for OSS OSes, not overpriced proprietary ones that lock you into ONE company.

Re: unix.freshmeat.net, win.freshmeat.net *and* java.freshmeat.net

> I'd like to see multiple freshmeats too

> - with the addition of

> java.freshmeat.net.

The multiple sites would be cool, though why java.freshmeat.net? That would be silly. Because we would then need c.freshmeat.net, cpp.freshmeat.net, php.freshmeat.net, perl.freshmeat.net, python.freshmeat.net, ruby.freshmeat.net, etc, etc.

Re: Freshmeat would be a good source for people forced to use windows.

> Additionally, in the spirit of open

> source all free software is of interest

> to the linux developer. Remember, we

> have the freedom to port the software to

> linux.

And just how would we port all that software to Linux/*BSD if it is written in Visual Basic, or uses MFC or DirectX or requires MS Office or IE or Active Directory, or Outlook or ...

I see the situation getting out of hand with tons of crap Free/Open software for Win32 on freshmeat that only works under MS Windows. There are plenty of other sites for that content, please keep it off of freshmeat. Though I think it would be OK for software that works under Win32 as well as Linux and *BSD.

That is why I am here
I came here looking for open source windows software yesterday. There are tons of stupid sites out there with crappy "free"ware and shareware and it is very difficult to find such things that aren't horrible. i don't even care if it is open-source, although you all obviously do. I would prefer if all software was, but you can't have everything. Regardless, when you need a program to do some useful activity, like synchronize files over ftp, or do frequency analysis of live audio, there are tons of crappy free programs that will do it, and a few nicely designed programs that will. Please help me find the nicely designed ones.

Re: Free software is always a good thing

> I don't see the difference between Free
> software for MS Windows and Free
> software for Solaris, AIX or any other
> non-free OS.

It only helps Windows/M$.... read more at this (http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/) web site (I don't completely agree with that but it gives reasons why that person believes the way they do.)

> So I'd say -- go for it. Include all the
> Free Software for Windows you can -- but
> make sure it is *only* free in the sense
> of open source......
> ... oh, and I'd approve of the "My
> Freshmeat" thing, too.

I'd approve too.

Though I do hate M$, I think it's just stubborn to believe GPL is the only way. People can't live off donations back and forth can they? Honestly I don't believe I've heard of many people making a living off a piece of open sourced software. I'll admit there are acceptations, but I'd have to say as a whole it's done for fun, as a hobby, or just to benifit the open source community. I have have basically removed all my old warez software and either found open source replacements or went without. For me price is still a big issue, being a poor college student. I just don't have the money to throw a couple hundred dollars down on a piece of software I don't know if I'll even like or not. I feel I've begun to ramble here. To conclude, open source projects are a beautiful thing. Closed source projects do have their place in the world. Freshmeat and the community can only benefit from having open sourced programs of all platforms, even proprietary platforms. I wasn't born perl scripting in Linux, I started out learning about DOS and programming with DJGPP (the gcc port to dos.) From there I learned about Linux, open source, and the GPL to mention a few things I learned about. Sure you can argue that porting to closed OSes only helps those users stay with that OS but it could also be argued that it brings in just as many people as it keeps away.

Free software...
Well, any free software is always good to have... There are not alot of free things you get in the world these days.

Its hard to teach old dogs new OS.
Yes I am the old dog. I have been a member here for sometime and yet I haven't quite grasp the Linux world as of yet. Why? Well the story could take a book to read, but in short I have been struggling with a computer I purchased 9 months ago that has cost me hundreds if not thousands of $ in loss not to mention the time. It started when I started to use Win XP OS.

My goal was to start this year out with my own business as a web designer and I ended up learning the complete ins and outs of troubleshooting, security issues and learning all the hardware and programs that makes a windows computer work. As for doing web designs, as far as I could get with that was buying all the expensive programs I would need to get started but the work has yet to happen. This week I have had to return this computer back to the factory for the third time and I have a tech support sheet a mile long with this company. Needless to say its been a complete nightmare!

For example: I noticed that my cd's were scratching badly, then some started to crack and became unusable. But when a expensive web design program I purchased busted in millions of pieces in the cd drive that made the sound of a gunshoot, halfway through the install, I had had enough. Do you think that the manufacture would offer to reimburse me of my software that was ruined? Ya right! They did change out the defected 3g's CDRom drive. Which is just one piece of hardware that went bad in it. They had to replace the built-into the motherboard net card, the floppy drive and cmos settings still will not keep its set, wiring to the start buttons and power switch came lose, the hard drive had to be replaced, and other hardware that I added like a new DVD player and additional hard drive, which was not compatible according to MS even tho it was the same brand as the others that came with the computer. My DVD player only works with a generic cdrom driver. MS even tried to stop me from using the Intel chipsets that came with the Intel computer because they had yet to determine if it was compatible? What is going on here anyway?

Yes, I learned a lot about computers this year. Everything that I hadn't set out to learn. One, never purchase a computer that doesn't have a version of the full windows cd. You know the old recovery only to this computer scam.

Why do we hate MS so badly? Because we are getting taken for a bunch of idiots. Those who can't afford the more expensive equipment are being screwed, scammed, spammed and hacked into. This is what I learned on my summer vacation, according to my husband who swears that this is what it has been for me because my new business hasn't made us a dime, instead has cost us an arm and a leg.

So this is how it happened that I turned my attention to Linux. At that time I had already joinned this site and really wasn't sure if I belonged here or not. I have read and even purchased two Linux cd's programs, one was the new Slackware 10 and the other was an old version of Susie. I don't know if it was because I am just dumb or my computers was too messed up, but I could not install it without mounting errors or corrupt file errors

I spent a lot of time reading instructions and continued to try over and over, step by step.

I became an expert in installing these cd's! Even so there was only two times I got past the error messages. If I was in I hadn't a clue what to do next. Even thou I was reading the instructions, I couldn't tell you if it was right or if something was missing. I never got online using a cable ISP. It was so foreign to me and I hated that! So here I am still wanting to learn to use my slackware, although in the forums they suggested for me to try something easier at first. Instead I am still stuck in this spiderweb of windows troubleshooting and then reinstalling my expensive software for the millionth time and have yet to use.

I am afraid if big businesses like MS takes complete control of the world of technology we won't have a chance in hell of ever stopping them at another point in time. This organization of hard at work Linux freedom developers is absolutely necessary and so important in order to prevent this from happening. All the hard work everyone has done to contribute to this cause without much pay will pay off in the long run and it must continue to grow.

As far as I am concern, allowing window users to use this site, If for no other reason but to stay in contact with others like myself, who will also face the types of nightmares that I have had, will eventually want an look for an alternative too. To be able to join this site and offer window users a taste of free licensed software even if it is just a few things we can use here is a necessary tool to see to it that the Linux information spreads, and it is. The Linux OS will get easier to use and more will switch. I am positive of that!

Freshmeat and all of you including the Linux contributors please allow me this opportunity to say thank you for being here! Hopefully I will figure out the how to's and maybe someday I will be able to submit a project of my own. Won't that be a hoot? ~

Wow....is all I can say
I have to admit, I myself have been impressed with the impressive growth and change i've seen with the Linux community over the past few years.

Being a long time Windows user, I remember a time when I was like, "What the heck is a Redhat?" all too clearly.

Unfortunately it seems that at least a few companies involved in the Linux world have sadly followed a very Microsoft like change in behavior and gone for the almighty dollar of profit. SuSE being one prime example, you can't even get a copy of their full distribution of Linux without paying them directly for it. Are the days of being able to download full Linux distro's via FTP becoming a thing of the past? I have to admit that I worry that might happen.

I understand and see the value of promoting free software for easy use and access on Windows. Afterall, it is the default standard that most everyone with real computer experience is used to dealing with.

However, there comes a problem with that as well. How do the creators of free and totally open software on a Windows platform compete? I honestly don't know the answer to that. I've spent a lot of time looking all over the net, and sure i've found a few freeware or open source CD/DVD burning applications, but not one comes even remotely close to offering all the various features and capability offered by Nero or Easy CD/DVD Media creator. So, is that what we are stuck with if we go the route of free software on Windows? Stuck with getting software that is free, and that provides source, but that has such limited functionality that people who want or need to use software of its type are stuck having no choice but to use the big commercial applications anyways?

Try it, look anywhere on the net, see if you can find a open source CD/DVD creating software that works on Windows, that offers not only the ability to burn but also encode, and create menus for VCD/SVCD/Photo-Cd's. Also try finding in that application the ability to create your own CD labels that you can customize from a huge number of templates, and even download duplicates to the original CD or DVD movie labels. Try then also finding the ability to burn audio CD's, MP3 CD's, bootable CD's/DVD's, and mixed content CD's/DVD's. Software like that just doesn't exist. Sure, you can find a few apps that put together make some attempt to offer all that, but even all put together, the big commerical apps still offer more in comparison.

Open office, as another example, doesn't offer near the amount of useable templates or clip art, animations, etc. that are all easily there for use in Microsoft Office.

Sure M$ Office is bloated, and its a huge system and resource hog, and a lot of times it doesn't work right, Nero is the same. But, you need to realize that not every person who uses a computer is a programmer living in his parent's basement who wants the leanest slickest thing that runs pure command line with a variety of codes and switches that it would take a translator to explain in plain english. Most computer users are like me, we don't like the bugs, the crashing, the incompatability, and resouces consuming of the huge retail apps, but we have little if any knowledge, training, or skill for working non GUI applications, especially those that require an extensive knowledge of command line coding just to install in the first place.

We might not admit it, even those who have taken the plunge to Linux, but it's the simple truth. We like our pretty fancy graphics, we like our easy point and click, we like our ability to do everything we'd want all in one single application. We don't like pure text command lines and confusing codes and switches. We don't like having to import and export between 5 different applications to get one thing done that we could do in a single application of the big commercial releases.

You need to realize a new generation is out there. A lot of your brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, and even parents are growing up in a computer world where DOS doesn't exist, and where learning DOS or learning any sort of command line functions are simply not part of any computer learning or practice that exists nearly anywhere at all anymore.

If you grew up using DOS, or grew up with DOS still around and worked with it in and out of Windows that is one thing. Most new computer users have never even seen, much less used a DOS prompt. So expecting and huge likelyhood for them to throw away Windows and dive into having learn complex Unix commands, is an expectation that will never ammount to anything or get you anywhere.

I myself admit, I despise Microsoft, I do not like their practices or activities. I really dislike using their oppurating systems. I would love to erase everything having anything to do with them from my computer and go to using Linux. However, will I? Can I? That question remains to be seen.

First of all, I don't like messing with command lines, and from what i've seen, a variety of Linux distrobutions can't even install Nvidea video card drivers without messing with complex coding to make them install, much less work. Likewise, I'm a gamer. Sure Wine and Cedega have made huge progress, and throw in DosBox, and your doing pretty decent on compatability. Yet, all 3 together are a complicated pain to setup properly, and they all 3 together still lack a good amount of support for what a huge amount of gamers want. The ability to run not DOS games and not the latest greatest top of the line releases like DOOM 3, but the ability to easily install, setup, run, and use games from the Windows 9.x era. Thats where the buck stops. Sorry bout the luck there. No matter how good DOSbox does at emulating DOS, it has no ability to emulate the 9.x Windows sytem. Sure Direct X support via Cedega is nice, but nearly any game that expects 9.x Windows to be there, in addition to Direct X, simply will not install or run on any variety or version of Linux, or if they are somehow possibly able to work, they simply won't work without a huge complicated pain in the rear end to install and use.

The concept of a simple icon on your desktop, you click, type in a few answers like your name and serial number, then it installs, adds all the entries needed to a system, sets itself up to work exactly as it needs to, then leaves you free to just click another icon, open it, use it, save it, and go on to something else, seems a bit alien to the world of Linux. Until that is there, people will keep using Windows even if they grow to despise the ground that Bill Gates walks on, they will still use it.

Now, if it is somehow managed to get a free, and open source office suite out there that yes, OFFERS EVERY LAST BIT of bloat that you get in M$ Office, but installs easily, and can easily switch back and forth from one application to the next, has no complicated setup WHATSOEVER, and offers full support for easily accessed document templates and an insanely huge database of clipart, animation, and graphics.....and it becomes possible to not only install but also play any DOS/Windows 9.x game ever relased.....and you can find a media creation software that is every bit as huge, bloated, resource hogging, and full of nice pretty graphics as Nero 6 Ultra Edition....that offers every single function that it offers, all from the same application....on Linux....then Linux will start to win people over in a massive scale.

The trick though, is the to offer every last bit of that without a single end user even having to look at a command line once. The instant end users have to learn some foreign language of codes, scripts, commands, switches, and whatever else is the instant you lose them.

Sure, to a super user that can talk Unix and Dos code in his sleep, that is slow, its buggy, its laggy, its inefficient, and its really a poor way to work a computer. Most home end users are not superusers, despite what we might think or claim. Our needs have to be me in what we want and expect out of an oppurating system, otherwise, we'll keep blinding using Windows, no matter how much we don't like it.

I'm right here. I'm waiting. I'm also more than willing to listen, read, and learn. I'll even openly admit to the hardware in my system if needs be.

I just need one Linux user, just one, that can help me find a distribution of Linux I can get that is actually FREE to get a copy of, hence what FREE software is supposed to be, I.E. I don't have to pay a penny to get a copy of it to anyone, that I can get installed onto my computer, get all my devices to work properly with it, including my cable internet connection. Then be able to help me setup DosBox, Cedega, Wine and whatever else is necessary for at least a good number of my games to work, and can do it all without me even having to look at a command line even once....then i'll gladly be a full time supporter and user of Linux. Until then, as much as I hate using Windows, XP is staying right where it is on my hard drive, as is MS Office, Nero 6 Ultra edition, etc.

So i'm waiting? Anyone up for the challenge of proving that it can be done to win me, the average, non-super user, end home user, over to Linux? Message me online sometime, and show me how it can be done, i'm willing, ready, and able to toss Windows, but it has to be easy, no command line messing or code learning, and full of nice pretty looking GUI goodness. Otherwise XP is where i'm staying, like most people.

addition
I just wanted to add that my previous post was in no way meant to insult or flame anyone or anything, but simly to bring across the sheer level of frustration that most Windows uers have when face with the choice of staying with M$ or diving over to Linux.

I am more than willing, ready, and able, to toss Windows and every M$ anything off my hard drive. The problem is, at least at the moment, unless a maracle happens, I can't.

I simply do not have the knowhow for working around complex command line interefaces, and following complex steps that might work or might not, not only depending on if i'm using Linux or not, but on which build or version of Linux i'm using.

So yeah, find a way to make it easy, full of pretty graphics, and no command line efforts needed, and i'm all about giving it a try. Until then, much like many users, i'll be using Windws.

Bill Gates
He used to have a dream. "Cheap and affordable home computing." Where's that gone? Vista Ultimate - £250! Free software's great, thats why I like Linux, and even paying a small amount <£30 is fine. But Microsoft have gone too far. I mean £250 thats way too mych. Please email me if you have a view on the subject alienwear@hotmail.co.uk .

Re: Wow....is all I can say
Try vmware player with ubuntu gutsy. It operates out-of-the-box as you would want on even home edition. A 10 G paw print isn't obtrusive. The fedora and gentoo distros didn't connect off the bat (thus . . . though gentoo-secret sauce had an impressive drag and drop from windows/ubuntu is ctr-alt exit to windows). Ignore the printer scanner and related devices since driver support isn't there (I've yet to try a networked printer option barring the driver issue). But it will automatically update all packages and itself. Networking is merely making a shortcut to your router assigned urls (and assigning the permissions as is done with windows) A little terminal use is nice using instructions such as "Terminal for Beginners" in the ubuntu forum (just enough to get some satisfaction/results is the key to learning that which you'd think is an antiquated mind-device. I used it to install plone/webDAV is rock solid justifying a virtual installation on those grounds alone!). Using a virtual machine is a safe sandbox for unsafe experiments. The torrent file and download will get it all visible in about 1 hour all said and done. Try it (all free). If you have the HD space you'll be pleasantly surprised (in getting the best of both worlds).

> I have to admit, I myself have been

> impressed with the impressive growth and

> change i've seen with the Linux

> community over the past few years.

>

> Being a long time Windows user, I

> remember a time when I was like,

> "What the heck is a Redhat?"

> all too clearly.

>

> Unfortunately it seems that at least a

> few companies involved in the Linux

> world have sadly followed a very

> Microsoft like change in behavior and

> gone for the almighty dollar of profit.

> SuSE being one prime example, you can't

> even get a copy of their full

> distribution of Linux without paying

> them directly for it. Are the days of

> being able to download full Linux

> distro's via FTP becoming a thing of the

> past? I have to admit that I worry that

> might happen.

>

> I understand and see the value of

> promoting free software for easy use and

> access on Windows. Afterall, it is the

> default standard that most everyone with

> real computer experience is used to

> dealing with.

>

> However, there comes a problem with that

> as well. How do the creators of free and

> totally open software on a Windows

> platform compete? I honestly don't know

> the answer to that. I've spent a lot of

> time looking all over the net, and sure

> i've found a few freeware or open source

> CD/DVD burning applications, but not one

> comes even remotely close to offering

> all the various features and capability

> offered by Nero or Easy CD/DVD Media

> creator. So, is that what we are stuck

> with if we go the route of free software

> on Windows? Stuck with getting software

> that is free, and that provides source,

> but that has such limited functionality

> that people who want or need to use

> software of its type are stuck having no

> choice but to use the big commercial

> applications anyways?

>

> Try it, look anywhere on the net, see if

> you can find a open source CD/DVD

> creating software that works on Windows,

> that offers not only the ability to burn

> but also encode, and create menus for

> VCD/SVCD/Photo-Cd's. Also try finding in

> that application the ability to create

> your own CD labels that you can

> customize from a huge number of

> templates, and even download duplicates

> to the original CD or DVD movie labels.

> Try then also finding the ability to

> burn audio CD's, MP3 CD's, bootable

> CD's/DVD's, and mixed content

> CD's/DVD's. Software like that just

> doesn't exist. Sure, you can find a few

> apps that put together make some attempt

> to offer all that, but even all put

> together, the big commerical apps still

> offer more in comparison.

>

> Open office, as another example, doesn't

> offer near the amount of useable

> templates or clip art, animations, etc.

> that are all easily there for use in

> Microsoft Office.

>

> Sure M$ Office is bloated, and its a

> huge system and resource hog, and a lot

> of times it doesn't work right, Nero is

> the same. But, you need to realize that

> not every person who uses a computer is

> a programmer living in his parent's

> basement who wants the leanest slickest

> thing that runs pure command line with a

> variety of codes and switches that it

> would take a translator to explain in

> plain english. Most computer users are

> like me, we don't like the bugs, the

> crashing, the incompatability, and

> resouces consuming of the huge retail

> apps, but we have little if any

> knowledge, training, or skill for

> working non GUI applications, especially

> those that require an extensive

> knowledge of command line coding just to

> install in the first place.

>

> We might not admit it, even those who

> have taken the plunge to Linux, but it's

> the simple truth. We like our pretty

> fancy graphics, we like our easy point

> and click, we like our ability to do

> everything we'd want all in one single

> application. We don't like pure text

> command lines and confusing codes and

> switches. We don't like having to import

> and export between 5 different

> applications to get one thing done that

> we could do in a single application of

> the big commercial releases.

>

> You need to realize a new generation is

> out there. A lot of your brothers,

> sisters, aunts, uncles, and even parents

> are growing up in a computer world where

> DOS doesn't exist, and where learning

> DOS or learning any sort of command line

> functions are simply not part of any

> computer learning or practice that

> exists nearly anywhere at all anymore.

>

> If you grew up using DOS, or grew up

> with DOS still around and worked with it

> in and out of Windows that is one thing.

> Most new computer users have never even

> seen, much less used a DOS prompt. So

> expecting and huge likelyhood for them

> to throw away Windows and dive into

> having learn complex Unix commands, is

> an expectation that will never ammount

> to anything or get you anywhere.

>

> I myself admit, I despise Microsoft, I

> do not like their practices or

> activities. I really dislike using their

> oppurating systems. I would love to

> erase everything having anything to do

> with them from my computer and go to

> using Linux. However, will I? Can I?

> That question remains to be seen.

>

> First of all, I don't like messing with

> command lines, and from what i've seen,

> a variety of Linux distrobutions can't

> even install Nvidea video card drivers

> without messing with complex coding to

> make them install, much less work.

> Likewise, I'm a gamer. Sure Wine and

> Cedega have made huge progress, and

> throw in DosBox, and your doing pretty

> decent on compatability. Yet, all 3

> together are a complicated pain to setup

> properly, and they all 3 together still

> lack a good amount of support for what a

> huge amount of gamers want. The ability

> to run not DOS games and not the latest

> greatest top of the line releases like

> DOOM 3, but the ability to easily

> install, setup, run, and use games from

> the Windows 9.x era. Thats where the

> buck stops. Sorry bout the luck there.

> No matter how good DOSbox does at

> emulating DOS, it has no ability to

> emulate the 9.x Windows sytem. Sure

> Direct X support via Cedega is nice, but

> nearly any game that expects 9.x Windows

> to be there, in addition to Direct X,

> simply will not install or run on any

> variety or version of Linux, or if they

> are somehow possibly able to work, they

> simply won't work without a huge

> complicated pain in the rear end to

> install and use.

>

> The concept of a simple icon on your

> desktop, you click, type in a few

> answers like your name and serial

> number, then it installs, adds all the

> entries needed to a system, sets itself

> up to work exactly as it needs to, then

> leaves you free to just click another

> icon, open it, use it, save it, and go

> on to something else, seems a bit alien

> to the world of Linux. Until that is

> there, people will keep using Windows

> even if they grow to despise the ground

> that Bill Gates walks on, they will

> still use it.

>

> Now, if it is somehow managed to get a

> free, and open source office suite out

> there that yes, OFFERS EVERY LAST BIT of

> bloat that you get in M$ Office, but

> installs easily, and can easily switch

> back and forth from one application to

> the next, has no complicated setup

> WHATSOEVER, and offers full support for

> easily accessed document templates and

> an insanely huge database of clipart,

> animation, and graphics.....and it

> becomes possible to not only install but

> also play any DOS/Windows 9.x game ever

> relased.....and you can find a media

> creation software that is every bit as

> huge, bloated, resource hogging, and

> full of nice pretty graphics as Nero 6

> Ultra Edition....that offers every

> single function that it offers, all from

> the same application....on Linux....then

> Linux will start to win people over in a

> massive scale.

>

> The trick though, is the to offer every

> last bit of that without a single end

> user even having to look at a command

> line once. The instant end users have to

> learn some foreign language of codes,

> scripts, commands, switches, and

> whatever else is the instant you lose

> them.

>

> Sure, to a super user that can talk Unix

> and Dos code in his sleep, that is slow,

> its buggy, its laggy, its inefficient,

> and its really a poor way to work a

> computer. Most home end users are not

> superusers, despite what we might think

> or claim. Our needs have to be me in

> what we want and expect out of an

> oppurating system, otherwise, we'll keep

> blinding using Windows, no matter how

> much we don't like it.

>

> I'm right here. I'm waiting. I'm also

> more than willing to listen, read, and

> learn. I'll even openly admit to the

> hardware in my system if needs be.

>

> I just need one Linux user, just one,

> that can help me find a distribution of

> Linux I can get that is actually FREE to

> get a copy of, hence what FREE software

> is supposed to be, I.E. I don't have to

> pay a penny to get a copy of it to

> anyone, that I can get installed onto my

> computer, get all my devices to work

> properly with it, including my cable

> internet connection. Then be able to

> help me setup DosBox, Cedega, Wine and

> whatever else is necessary for at least

> a good number of my games to work, and

> can do it all without me even having to

> look at a command line even once....then

> i'll gladly be a full time supporter and

> user of Linux. Until then, as much as I

> hate using Windows, XP is staying right

> where it is on my hard drive, as is MS

> Office, Nero 6 Ultra edition, etc.

>

> So i'm waiting? Anyone up for the

> challenge of proving that it can be done

> to win me, the average, non-super user,

> end home user, over to Linux? Message me

> online sometime, and show me how it can

> be done, i'm willing, ready, and able to

> toss Windows, but it has to be easy, no

> command line messing or code learning,

> and full of nice pretty looking GUI

> goodness. Otherwise XP is where i'm

> staying, like most people.

Re: Wow....is all I can say
Additional details are warranted. Drag and drop functionality as well as immediate out-of-the-box connectivity satisfaction was obtained with a vm appliance (running on vmware player) . . . a regular download from http://www.bagside.com/bagvapp/ linked from http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/856 called 64 Studio 2.0 Electric. The bagside website does all drag & drop tested distros. So there are probably better candidates than I originally let you to believe. That is, I'm still scouting and finding better luck out-of-the-box functionality. Sorry for having to postscript my original thought.

> I have to admit, I myself have been

> impressed with the impressive growth and

> change i've seen with the Linux

> community over the past few years.

>

> Being a long time Windows user, I

> remember a time when I was like,

> "What the heck is a Redhat?"

> all too clearly.

>

> Unfortunately it seems that at least a

> few companies involved in the Linux

> world have sadly followed a very

> Microsoft like change in behavior and

> gone for the almighty dollar of profit.

> SuSE being one prime example, you can't

> even get a copy of their full

> distribution of Linux without paying

> them directly for it. Are the days of

> being able to download full Linux

> distro's via FTP becoming a thing of the

> past? I have to admit that I worry that

> might happen.

>

> I understand and see the value of

> promoting free software for easy use and

> access on Windows. Afterall, it is the

> default standard that most everyone with

> real computer experience is used to

> dealing with.

>

> However, there comes a problem with that

> as well. How do the creators of free and

> totally open software on a Windows

> platform compete? I honestly don't know

> the answer to that. I've spent a lot of

> time looking all over the net, and sure

> i've found a few freeware or open source

> CD/DVD burning applications, but not one

> comes even remotely close to offering

> all the various features and capability

> offered by Nero or Easy CD/DVD Media

> creator. So, is that what we are stuck

> with if we go the route of free software

> on Windows? Stuck with getting software

> that is free, and that provides source,

> but that has such limited functionality

> that people who want or need to use

> software of its type are stuck having no

> choice but to use the big commercial

> applications anyways?

>

> Try it, look anywhere on the net, see if

> you can find a open source CD/DVD

> creating software that works on Windows,

> that offers not only the ability to burn

> but also encode, and create menus for

> VCD/SVCD/Photo-Cd's. Also try finding in

> that application the ability to create

> your own CD labels that you can

> customize from a huge number of

> templates, and even download duplicates

> to the original CD or DVD movie labels.

> Try then also finding the ability to

> burn audio CD's, MP3 CD's, bootable

> CD's/DVD's, and mixed content

> CD's/DVD's. Software like that just

> doesn't exist. Sure, you can find a few

> apps that put together make some attempt

> to offer all that, but even all put

> together, the big commerical apps still

> offer more in comparison.

>

> Open office, as another example, doesn't

> offer near the amount of useable

> templates or clip art, animations, etc.

> that are all easily there for use in

> Microsoft Office.

>

> Sure M$ Office is bloated, and its a

> huge system and resource hog, and a lot

> of times it doesn't work right, Nero is

> the same. But, you need to realize that

> not every person who uses a computer is

> a programmer living in his parent's

> basement who wants the leanest slickest

> thing that runs pure command line with a

> variety of codes and switches that it

> would take a translator to explain in

> plain english. Most computer users are

> like me, we don't like the bugs, the

> crashing, the incompatability, and

> resouces consuming of the huge retail

> apps, but we have little if any

> knowledge, training, or skill for

> working non GUI applications, especially

> those that require an extensive

> knowledge of command line coding just to

> install in the first place.

>

> We might not admit it, even those who

> have taken the plunge to Linux, but it's

> the simple truth. We like our pretty

> fancy graphics, we like our easy point

> and click, we like our ability to do

> everything we'd want all in one single

> application. We don't like pure text

> command lines and confusing codes and

> switches. We don't like having to import

> and export between 5 different

> applications to get one thing done that

> we could do in a single application of

> the big commercial releases.

>

> You need to realize a new generation is

> out there. A lot of your brothers,

> sisters, aunts, uncles, and even parents

> are growing up in a computer world where

> DOS doesn't exist, and where learning

> DOS or learning any sort of command line

> functions are simply not part of any

> computer learning or practice that

> exists nearly anywhere at all anymore.

>

> If you grew up using DOS, or grew up

> with DOS still around and worked with it

> in and out of Windows that is one thing.

> Most new computer users have never even

> seen, much less used a DOS prompt. So

> expecting and huge likelyhood for them

> to throw away Windows and dive into

> having learn complex Unix commands, is

> an expectation that will never ammount

> to anything or get you anywhere.

>

> I myself admit, I despise Microsoft, I

> do not like their practices or

> activities. I really dislike using their

> oppurating systems. I would love to

> erase everything having anything to do

> with them from my computer and go to

> using Linux. However, will I? Can I?

> That question remains to be seen.

>

> First of all, I don't like messing with

> command lines, and from what i've seen,

> a variety of Linux distrobutions can't

> even install Nvidea video card drivers

> without messing with complex coding to

> make them install, much less work.

> Likewise, I'm a gamer. Sure Wine and

> Cedega have made huge progress, and

> throw in DosBox, and your doing pretty

> decent on compatability. Yet, all 3

> together are a complicated pain to setup

> properly, and they all 3 together still

> lack a good amount of support for what a

> huge amount of gamers want. The ability

> to run not DOS games and not the latest

> greatest top of the line releases like

> DOOM 3, but the ability to easily

> install, setup, run, and use games from

> the Windows 9.x era. Thats where the

> buck stops. Sorry bout the luck there.

> No matter how good DOSbox does at

> emulating DOS, it has no ability to

> emulate the 9.x Windows sytem. Sure

> Direct X support via Cedega is nice, but

> nearly any game that expects 9.x Windows

> to be there, in addition to Direct X,

> simply will not install or run on any

> variety or version of Linux, or if they

> are somehow possibly able to work, they

> simply won't work without a huge

> complicated pain in the rear end to

> install and use.

>

> The concept of a simple icon on your

> desktop, you click, type in a few

> answers like your name and serial

> number, then it installs, adds all the

> entries needed to a system, sets itself

> up to work exactly as it needs to, then

> leaves you free to just click another

> icon, open it, use it, save it, and go

> on to something else, seems a bit alien

> to the world of Linux. Until that is

> there, people will keep using Windows

> even if they grow to despise the ground

> that Bill Gates walks on, they will

> still use it.

>

> Now, if it is somehow managed to get a

> free, and open source office suite out

> there that yes, OFFERS EVERY LAST BIT of

> bloat that you get in M$ Office, but

> installs easily, and can easily switch

> back and forth from one application to

> the next, has no complicated setup

> WHATSOEVER, and offers full support for

> easily accessed document templates and

> an insanely huge database of clipart,

> animation, and graphics.....and it

> becomes possible to not only install but

> also play any DOS/Windows 9.x game ever

> relased.....and you can find a media

> creation software that is every bit as

> huge, bloated, resource hogging, and

> full of nice pretty graphics as Nero 6

> Ultra Edition....that offers every

> single function that it offers, all from

> the same application....on Linux....then

> Linux will start to win people over in a

> massive scale.

>

> The trick though, is the to offer every

> last bit of that without a single end

> user even having to look at a command

> line once. The instant end users have to

> learn some foreign language of codes,

> scripts, commands, switches, and

> whatever else is the instant you lose

> them.

>

> Sure, to a super user that can talk Unix

> and Dos code in his sleep, that is slow,

> its buggy, its laggy, its inefficient,

> and its really a poor way to work a

> computer. Most home end users are not

> superusers, despite what we might think

> or claim. Our needs have to be me in

> what we want and expect out of an

> oppurating system, otherwise, we'll keep

> blinding using Windows, no matter how

> much we don't like it.

>

> I'm right here. I'm waiting. I'm also

> more than willing to listen, read, and

> learn. I'll even openly admit to the

> hardware in my system if needs be.

>

> I just need one Linux user, just one,

> that can help me find a distribution of

> Linux I can get that is actually FREE to

> get a copy of, hence what FREE software

> is supposed to be, I.E. I don't have to

> pay a penny to get a copy of it to

> anyone, that I can get installed onto my

> computer, get all my devices to work

> properly with it, including my cable

> internet connection. Then be able to

> help me setup DosBox, Cedega, Wine and

> whatever else is necessary for at least

> a good number of my games to work, and

> can do it all without me even having to

> look at a command line even once....then

> i'll gladly be a full time supporter and

> user of Linux. Until then, as much as I

> hate using Windows, XP is staying right

> where it is on my hard drive, as is MS

> Office, Nero 6 Ultra edition, etc.

>

> So i'm waiting? Anyone up for the

> challenge of proving that it can be done

> to win me, the average, non-super user,

> end home user, over to Linux? Message me

> online sometime, and show me how it can

> be done, i'm willing, ready, and able to

> toss Windows, but it has to be easy, no

> command line messing or code learning,

> and full of nice pretty looking GUI

> goodness. Otherwise XP is where i'm

> staying, like most people.